Author Topic: Subwoofer discusion thread - suggestions, tips and info  (Read 49533 times)

Offline t1m3ch453r

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Re: Subwoofer discusion thread - suggestions, tips and info
« Reply #30 on: January 08, 2009, 14:25 »
Now now pete, lets not put words in each other's mouth. I never said the SVS had less grunt than the REL. All I am insinuating is that the REL has enough grunt for most systems...

Offline armoury

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Re: Subwoofer discusion thread - suggestions, tips and info
« Reply #31 on: January 08, 2009, 14:58 »
1. Using the receiver test tone, set all speakers to 75db on the spl meter..

2.  Set sub to 79db on the spl meter.

3.  If receiver allows, set front speakers to full range + double bass (ie bass to be sent to both front and sub).

Correct?

Errrmmm... not necessarily.  It depends on what the test tone is encoded at, some it is 70db.  Avia disc is 85dB IIRC, DVE is 75dB.  And even then, this is simply a particular 'volume level' on the receiver, whcih you must note down, as being the "reference level".  Ideally the "number" you see should be something convenient to remember, e.g. on my Marantz, 0dB was where I set "reference level", i.e. at 0dB the Avia test tone comes out at 85dB from each speaker.

For subs, people usually like to make it a little 'hot', so an extra 2-3dB is all right. Also, one other issue to note is that the analog SPL meters are sometimes a bit inaccurate with low frequencies and this must be taken into consideration.  (Sorry, can't rememebr the details, though.)

Whether to set the speaker designation to full (large) or small is also somewhat subjective.  For instance, THX recommends that 5.0 speakers are always set to 'small', even if they are floorstanders and full-range.  The reason is to let the specialist bassist, the sub, do all the heavy bass work, leaving the 5.0 to reproduce everything else more accurately and with less strain.  So even though my Mission 782 front pair are floorstanders, I still set to 'small'.  Also, if bass is going to both sub and mains, there might be interference between the two. 
There is no dark side of the moon really.  Matter of fact, it's all dark.

Offline jonlee

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Re: Subwoofer discusion thread - suggestions, tips and info
« Reply #32 on: January 08, 2009, 17:25 »
What I have been doing since dvd days.

If using test tone from receiver (not test disc), set main channels to 75db, but sub to 85db. With this +10 setting for the sub, if playing back test tone from a rest disc, all 5.1 channels will sound the same level.  Also set front speakers to small regardless whether how big or how small the speakers are.

The last few articles quoted by pete was recommending almost totally against the above.  Set sub to +4 instead of +10 using test tone from receiver.  Do not send only lfe to ur sub.

Offline petetherock

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Re: Subwoofer discusion thread - suggestions, tips and info
« Reply #33 on: January 08, 2009, 18:51 »
Jonlee
Just take note Audyssey tends to make the bass and rear channels 'hotter', so be careful of the traditional settings and methods. Does not happen for YPAO
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Offline petetherock

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Re: Subwoofer discusion thread - suggestions, tips and info
« Reply #34 on: January 08, 2009, 19:09 »
Maybe you should just stop insinuating.
Or 'guessing' that I have not heard the REL


Now now pete, lets not put words in each other's mouth. I never said the SVS had less grunt than the REL. All I am insinuating is that the REL has enough grunt for most systems...
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Offline landis

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Re: Subwoofer discusion thread - suggestions, tips and info
« Reply #35 on: January 08, 2009, 19:29 »
Just take note Audyssey tends to make the bass and rear channels 'hotter'

i do agree that after the audyssey calibrations the rear channels seem "hotter", and the panning surround sounds seem more involving and real. as for the bass, most people tend to up it a few notches

Offline jonlee

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Re: Subwoofer discusion thread - suggestions, tips and info
« Reply #36 on: January 08, 2009, 23:05 »
I only used audessy for the eq.  After that manually set speaker level via spl.

Before using my onkyo, I was using a lexicon, which recommend setting sub 10db hotter than the mains using the internal test tone, which was what I did.  Also verified with DD test disc that setting sub to +10 will get all levels equal volume.  When I got the onkyo, forget about the +10 and set all equal level initially.  After watching a few movies, felt bass like not shoik.  Then I suddenly remember the +10 for the sub and did that, movies came back to the old feeling.  Have been using +10 for the sub level, with speakers set to small.  Recently just tried setting speakers to large (without double bass) to test test, but sub still +10.

Until I read pete's recent quote to set sub at +4 on the spl to get a +10 on rta...so now a bit blur liao.  Guess have to use test disc to verify.  Just checked onkyo manual, it also mention set all speakers to the same level, did not mention set sub to +10.

Just found this from another forum on setting sub, make a little bit more sense

"...Subwoofer levels are the most difficult to set. No SPL meter is very accurate at Low frequecies below 30Hz, so the room modes can cause errors. The test tone of the internal test tone generator is a "warble" or group od bass frequencies that work together to produce a more that the common narrow band found on most test DVDs. Realistically, the LFE track can not be set by a SPL meter, but requires a RTA. But because the LFE track is affected by the the Subwoofer's level, you can set the subwoofer to read an average of 79dB (so the lowest part of the needle swing is +75dB) and the LFE track will play back at the proper level (well as close to too using just a SPL meter)..."
« Last Edit: January 08, 2009, 23:29 by jonlee »

Offline petetherock

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Re: Subwoofer discusion thread - suggestions, tips and info
« Reply #37 on: January 10, 2009, 08:06 »
Jonlee
See what sub + amp you are using, I find Audyssey as I mentioned before, boosts the bass and with the new Dynamic EQ, the bass is even 'hotter' esp at lower volumes, so + 10db is a bit too much IMO.
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Offline petetherock

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Realistic SVS prices
« Reply #38 on: January 16, 2009, 11:53 »
For those keen on this brand, have a look at the MO section for the real prices shipped to Singapore.

No point shooting the breeze and quoting US prices. You need to get the NETT price shipped to your door when doing an estimate of the cost.

These prices are available in the MO section.
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Offline lwm99

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Re: Subwoofer discusion thread - suggestions, tips and info
« Reply #39 on: January 16, 2009, 17:50 »
IMHO, when comparing the sub among the brands and models, look at their NETT prices for the sound quality they deliver, rather than focus too much and compare on the original sub price or shipping charges. In the end, just see NETT price A and NETT price B, and ask yourself which one you prefer, rather than because sub A is cheaper to ship, it is more worth to buy it.

Offline yeeming

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Re: Realistic SVS prices
« Reply #40 on: January 16, 2009, 19:53 »
For those keen on this brand, have a look at the MO section for the real prices shipped to Singapore.

No point shooting the breeze and quoting US prices. You need to get the NETT price shipped to your door when doing an estimate of the cost.

These prices are available in the MO section.


ops.. i think i was the one who "shot the breeze" and quoted in usd+shipping in another thread.... apologies... didn't know the final prices were posted in other MO threads cos I just read the last (4th MO) thread..... 

Offline petetherock

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Re: Subwoofer discusion thread - suggestions, tips and info
« Reply #41 on: July 15, 2009, 17:30 »
If you find little info or replies on good subs under 1k, well that is because there is no much choice...


SVS is now available locally at KEC, so that is a good choice, and their basic stuff still pack a big punch.

Consider hard how much you budget.

I learnt this the hard way myself and I know that buying a cheaper sub may disappoint, then you still end up spending more...

So get a good once which will give you lots of enjoyment!
Firstly
REL is now carrried by KEC as well


There are subs for < 1k, but after a few months, you will feel rather unhappy and a need to upgrade, so why not do it right the first time.

**** these are my personal opinions and are in no way endorsing certain brands, nor do I get money from them for this ***

Most cost 1-2k

- small form factor subs - Velodyne SPL 1000i, 800i or the remote versions

- Rel - nice for music, decent for HT but try the SVS for more grunt, SPL and depth

- SVS - HT monsters PB 12 + or the PC equivalent (needs importing - see the MO thread)

- HSU - VTF 3 + turbo (also needs importing)


Edit: Note some are not available locally, and each has its virtues. RELs are tight and have traditionally been the choice for subs. But SVS do better in HT IMO. But they do not suit Instant Gratification Folks who want their kicks immediately.



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Offline petetherock

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Don't kill your subs and your hearing
« Reply #42 on: August 15, 2009, 10:58 »
Just directing fellow sub owners to this thread and the caution on turning up the sub gain or amp volume control too high in search of that "chest-thumping" experience.

http://www.xtremeplace.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=50695.msg493302#msg493302

We want to keep our hearing, our subs and our relationship with our neighbours healthy for a long time!

Cheers
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Offline petetherock

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The Holy Grail....
« Reply #43 on: September 28, 2009, 12:30 »
Many of us buy that super subwoofer in search of the Holy Grail - that "chest thumping" effect, which can cost a lot in terms of effort and money.

Merely buying an expensive sub will not get it sometimes.

The ROOM NODES will make a huge difference. Most rooms have some frequencies which boost certain frequencies, and give a SUCK OUT effect at other frequencies.


The simplest way to find out is to run a sweep of all the frequencies via a CD which has the tones from 6 to 1 MHz. Then use a SPL meter to measure. After which you will need to turn out or down the various frequencies which are affected. Some of this can be done by the new auto-eq software such as YPAO or Audyssye, but you still need some elbow grease to fix this sometimes.

The key thing is to spend some thing in setting up the gear and understand the dynamics of your room.

Cheers
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Offline petetherock

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Re: Subwoofer discusion thread - suggestions, tips and info
« Reply #44 on: October 03, 2009, 13:00 »
Just had some friends over, so just to repeat some of the things we went through:

Quote
1. Set speakers to "Small" in AVR
2. Set crossover to 80hz in AVR.
3. Set sub level in AVR to "0db"
4. Disable crossover in sub to allow AVR to do the "crossover-ing"
5. Play the Auto Calibration in the AVR to set up the speaker distance
6. Double checked the distance with a measuring tape, corrected in AVR as necessary
7. Set SPL meter on tripod in primary seating location, at ear height when seated. Pointed straight up as recommended on Avia.
8. Play Connections and Phasing check to double check
9. Set SPL meter to "C" and "SLOW", set to 70db
10. Set AVR to "00db"
11. Set Sub gain to halfway
12. Play test tones for all speakers from Avia, and adjusting each one's level in the AVR until SPL meter reads 70db for all speakers. Ensured I'm out of the way to minimise reflection so operated AVR using remote.




I tend to use about 10 db above my listening level, and then run a frequency sweep.

This step is VITAL.
Then you will know which frquencies are too high or have a suck out.

Some previous advice from JAG:

Quote
Set a benchmark volume
a) Play a warble or spot tone at 1Khz. Adjust the amp's volume such that this tone is 80dB loud. This step sets a benchmark loudness to ensure your sub is just about as loud as the mains. (No need exact match for now)

Play warble tones and measure
b) Use Warble tones to measure. Avoid spot tones, otherwise the readings may be false readings. (Why? You can convince yourself why by playing a 50hz tone and walk around the room. You will notice that moving just a feet left or right will have dramatically different readins. Warble tones minimise this effect.) Carry on with measuring.

EQ it
c) Procede on with EQ adjustments to get flat curve.

How steep is the House curve slope?
d) Once flat, play a 32hz tone and mentally note the loudness of this tone. Play a 80hz tone. Some subs that are not phase correctly to the mains will have the 80hz tone sound very soft (coz of acoustic cancellation). If thats the case, make sure your sub and mains are phased correctly. I do this by playing a tone at the exact x-over freq (90hz for yamaha) and adjust the phase. The correct phase is when the SPL measured is at the maximum.
e) Coming back to comparing 32hz and 80hz, we can alternate this comparision by comparing 32hz with 63hz/80hz/112hz. The essense of this is to allow us to create the last link of human calibration, ie calibrate it to what sounds nice to our ears. What measures nice to the meter is irrelevant for now.

Join the dots
f) After comparing, it is almost certain that a 32hz tone will sound softer than a 63/80/112hz tone. (If you find 32hz tone louder, then somewhere went wrong during the flattening of the curve.) Insert a gain/cut at 32hz and adjust the gain such that the 32hz sounds just as loud as the upper bass note. This will form 2 points at 32hz and 80hz to form our house curve. 99% of the time, 32Hz will be louder that the 80hz point.

Verifying the house curve
g) From here, simply extrapolate to form a smooth gradient between 32hz and 80hz. Thats IT! house curved! The most important test is to verify the house curve. Remember, the house curve is supposed to allow bass notes be be heard just as loud at any frequency. A test to verify this is to run a freq sweep test. The freq sweep would start from 160hz and end at 16hz and last about 1min. From start to end, the entire sweep should sound at about the same volume without gross changes in volume as it sweeps downwards from 160hz to 16hz.
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