Author Topic: HD Fury  (Read 6681 times)

Offline desray

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Re: HD Fury
« Reply #195 on: May 22, 2020, 22:46 »
Doggie, I don't think that's it. After you change MaxCLL and MaxFall, you have to click <Create IF> That creates the string just above the button, which are the HEX codes, which will be put into the HDR Metadata. You then click <Send HDR> and it will send it to the projector so you can experiment with different levels of MAXCLL and MaxFall. After that, if you hit <Refresh> it won't change back

If you don't <Create IF> and <Send HDR>, nothing is changed in the HDR Metadata and if you Refresh, it will just flip the MaxCLL and MaxFall values back as you haven't done anything....

Possible I'm missing something as I'm a newbie at this....
Thanks for the tip on the <Create IF> button. I will try tmr.


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Offline desray

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HD Fury
« Reply #196 on: May 22, 2020, 23:03 »

Quick check, did you try calibrating your PJ for HDR? Ive been wanting to ask fellow forumers here, how is everyone handling HDR calibration for PJ ? do you guys just leave it at the default? or eyeball it?

What i have done now, is to force dolby vision processing on SDR Rec709, so it injects the metadata into the signal path and the BenQ switches into HDR mode. I then calibrated the screen (with dolby vision processing on) using SDR Rec709 (aimed at 75% saturation 75% intensity) chromapure disk with SDR patterns. This method seems to work so far except for light output, i leave all lightness for color errors at -85% consistently, but calibrated Hue and Saturation to its targeted reference value.

Another approach im attempting this weekend, is to use the calibrated SDR Rec709 (aimed at 75% saturation 75% intensity) reference value for whitebalance, CMS, and input it to the Benq when in HDR mode. Then let Dolby Vision do its tone mapping stuff.

The first approach which i have done seems ok, HDR looks fantastic.
Pls use Chromapure pattern generator to invoke BT2020 test patterns to do a HDR calibration. This will expand the CIE Color spectrum to BT2020. But we will be calibrating at 75% saturation and intensity to achieve P3-DCI Color gamut within the BT2020 container.

There is no need to calibrate for HDR using DV mode when used in conjunction with the Vertex 2. We just need to get the base HDR10 layer tuned with Chromapure s/w.

 


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Offline ronildoq

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Re: HD Fury
« Reply #197 on: May 23, 2020, 12:08 »
Roni, did you click <Create IF> and <Send HDR> after changing the settings? On mine, if I do that the setting is fixed. Otherwise it will go back when I refresh.

Hi tsammy, yes I Change to 125 50 then click on “create if” and send HDR . When I tick  the HDR option, I can see the display showing 125 50 info for 30 seconds.



This is for HDR original content and no upconvert to dolby vision. I can see clearly 125 50 and pictures looks correct when this kicks in, even on a 4000 nits source content


But I’m convinced with dolby vision algorithm. It’s superior in many ways from what I’m seeing, even on a 6000 nit content . So I switch the HDR off, but with dolby vision player led, I can’t see this info on the vertex. It Is showing some MAC number instead . So I’m not sure if it is in 125 50 for dolby vision , I can’t tell from the info button. That’s why I asked the question, I suspected it to be firmware related.

The colour space should be rec2020 and not dci p3 on that page, here, not DCI P3. If I understand correctly, ycbcr should be in rec 709, 2020. Not dci-p3. So again no sure why it keeps default back to dci-p3



If I close the browser and open it again, all the values are back to default 4000 . Maybe I’ll test with just HDR only. Off dolby vision for a while just to confirm this point by doggie . See if it maintains the 125 50 ratio that I have set on the vertex

Be back soon, study time with kids...


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Offline desray

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Re: HD Fury
« Reply #198 on: May 23, 2020, 12:18 »
Using the Vertex 2 yesterday for about 3hrs and I was pretty impressed by its EDID management. It is easily the "swiss-army-knife" for all-things HDMI. You can pretty much discard your existing HDMI switcher/splitter or Dr HDMI to resolve annoying hand-shaking issues and go for this all-in-one solution package.



Setting up
My setup is pretty straight-forward. Due to the limited Inputs of this device, I have opted to connect it in between my Sony VW870ES laser projector and the Denon X8500H (AVR). This setup is ideal for me since I have more than 4 media devices - i.e. NVidia Shield TV 2019, XBox One X, Panasonic UB420, Pioneer LX500, Zappiti 4K Mini and my HTPC. Furthermore, I will need the AVR OSD for me to fiddle with the AVR settings once in a while. It is the simplest way to set up imo. Just a single HDMI cable from the HDMI Output (Main/ARC) to the RX0 Input and 2 HDMI cables out from TX0 and TX1 to my Sony VW870ES projector and my Samsung 4K HDR PC Monitor respectively. Both display is HDCP2.2 with a native 4K resolution of 4096 x 2160p and capable of outputting HDR10 (usually up to P3-DCI color gamut within a BT2020 container). This part is important if you want to copy the EDID Sink from TX0 to TX1 (in Splitter mode). Alternatively, you can also opt for the Matrix mode if you have two distinctly different display resolutions like a 1080p monitor or a non-HDR 4K monitor while the other one is a 4K HDR OLED TV/Projector. This will allow for a separate EDID Sink to work in an optimum setting for each of the display outputs without compromising the other display. This is something that Vertex 2 is able to handle it with aplomb.

Navigating the Web UI
Sadly, the Vertex 2 does not come with a remote controller (though you can use a third-party universal controller like the Logitech Harmony One or equivalent). Personally, I don't find this as a deal-breaker. On the contrary, I find the Web User Interface (UI) to be more than enough to handle the basic operation you will ever need. The web UI interface is easy to navigate without noticeable lag and changes made to the Vertex is almost instantaneous. Remember this is NEITHER a device that requires constant access NOR is it a calibration tool just because it is known to "improve" the image quality of your 4K display.

Low Latency Dolby Vision (LLDV)?
The main selling point of Vertex 2 is the ability to "spoof" the EDID and add Dolby Vision (DV) support to any HDR10 display output in the likes of a Projector. DV provides what we called dynamic meta-data on top of the HDR10 base layer. HDR10 only provides static meta-data. For the longest time, Projector owner has to rely on either MadVR in a HTPC or get the Panasonic UB9000/420/820 with their proprietary HDR Optimizer to enjoy dynamic tone-mapping (DTM) implemented at the source level. JVC N series Projectors also came up with their very own proprietary solution (FrameAdapt HDR) to do DTM at the display level. With the success of MadVR being among the top favorites for Projector owners, Madshi, the creator of MadVR even came up with a business plan to manufacture a standalone HTPC with MadVR built-in at an insane introductory price which is far beyond the reach of an average joe (like me). So a cheaper alternative is to continue using the free version of the MadVR on your HTPC (which I did) or get your hands on a Panasonic UB420/820 for all your 4K HDR content.



Along came Vertex 2 which kind of provide another way to get better DTM for your 4K HDR content when they found a way to make the source - e.g. 4K UHD bluray players and media streamers like Apple TV and NVidia Shield TV 2019 to accept DV and its inherited benefits of DTM. I have been quite hesitant to buy the Vertex 2 because I used to own a JVC N7 Projector that was equipped with a FrameAdpat HDR feature; it worked wonders to my 4K content. In addition, I have also bought the Panasonic UB420 (courtesy of member WIM who helped to purchase a unit from Australia) and the most recent one being the HTPC with MadVR plugins that once again deliver quality 4K HDR PQ. I guess I can't resist the temptation after I saw winwinc81's bringing in HD Fury products into Singapore. So the rest is history.

When to use Automix?
The abovementioned Custom mode is for ease of use while Automix allows you more flexibility and control over what and how you want the Vertex 2 signal to be processed. For instance, you can choose what audio flags (e.g. DD+, Dolby Atmos, DTS X etc) to be bitstream from the Audio Output to the AVR for processing. Choose Audio Out if you intend to route all Audio flags to AVR for processing. You can mute the Audio Flags for your Video flags (from TX0 or TX1) under the Config tab. By default, it is set to "On". Unless you are using ARC or eARC to do "Audio Return" from the TX0 or TX1 and pipe to the AVR via Audio Output of the Vertex 2, it is recommended to turn it off.

If you intend to use LLDV for your source, be sure to check the DV flags to accept Custom DV String which derives its inputs under the DV tab. This option will achieve the same results as selecting Sony A1 LLDV (Preset 5) under the Custom option. Of course, the most important aspect of using Automix over Custom option is the ability to do Matrix processing when you have different inputs (source) for different display output (TV or PC monitor which does not have the same specs as the main display output - in this case, a Projector).

Scaler Tab
Not much need to be set here...All the default settings are best left intact. There is only one checkbox that you need to ensure it is uncheck - i.e. TX0 No Upscaling. By default, it is already unchecked. What this does is to allow 1080p content to be upscaled to 4K resolution for better image quality (make sure that you have enabled video pass-through in your AVR).
« Last Edit: May 23, 2020, 12:48 by desray »

Offline desray

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Re: HD Fury
« Reply #199 on: May 23, 2020, 12:21 »
Best modes
Vertex 2 is very powerful and it contained 99 EDID presets with 9 custom presets ideally dialed in for some of the prominent names in the 4K community. Under the EDID tab, you will find Sony A1 LLDV is selected by default. The rest of the presets are all the possible combinations in terms of resolutions (4K, 1080p, 720p), colorspaces (BT709, HDR10, BT2020), bit-depths (8-bit, 10-bit, 12-bit) and color sampling (4:4:4. 4:2:2, 4:2:0, RGB) that you can possibly think of. Of course, there is only 2 or 3 modes that you probably need to use. There are:

1. Sony A1 LLDV mode (Preset 5)
2. 4K60-444 600Mhz HDR BT2020 All Sound (Preset 11)
3. 4K60-444 600Mhz BT2020 All Sound (Preset 14)

Why this 3 modes and not the rest? Of course, you can play around with other custom presets as well but for the majority of us, we want to get LLDV to output from our LLDV sources (e.g. 4K UHD bluray player and Netflix Dolby Vision on media streamers like Roku, NVidia Shield TV, Chromecast and Apple TV) to a non-DV display - i.e. Projector or 4K TV/monitor. Hence out-of-the-box setting already has the popular Sony A1 LLDV (Preset 5) selected for you. Just ensure that your connection is properly setup and in no time, you will enjoy the benefits of DTM from a LLDV source.





I will usually cycle between Preset 5 and Preset 11 to see which is better. For Preset 11, we are sending a HDR10 signal at maximum bandwidth (600Mhz) assuming your video chain - i.e. source, display and the HDMI cable, to the display (Projector). You will be asking why would anyone do that since LLDV is what we after? While I agreed for the most part, LLDV is what we seek but there are times when HDR10 layer has better dynamic contrast, shadow details and gradation compared to a DV layer. It is content-dependent, hence you may want to toggle between Preset 5 and 11 to see which one provides the cleanest picture and most natural colors in your eyes.



Preset 14 is for those who wanted a brighter picture but still retain the BT2020 colorspace. Yes, I'm referring to the HDR>SDR BT2020 conversion which for the longest time have been the "go-to" mode for low lumen (lamp-based) projectors. You can select this Preset on the fly with just a quick selection from the drop-down list.

HDR/AVI Tab
If you have previously selected Preset 11 (HDR mode), then you will see the HDR metadata here. Details such as the EOTF (gamma-equivalent) curve used: SMPTE 2084 (PQ Cuve), the colorspace and the White Point: D65 (with the white reference coordinates) along with the RGB reference coordinates and the MaxCLL and MaxFALL (static meta-data for HDR). For 4K disc that comes with a static meta-data, it will appear here.



Unless you want to further customize the HDR settings like the Maximum and Minimum Luminance levels - e.g. set at Max Lum: 4,000 nits and Min LumL 0.005 nits, you can set it here as well but in order to use it, you will need to check the "Use custom HDR for TX0 and TX1 [ignore RX HDR] checkbox. You can verify by checking the Max/Min Lum vlaues on top or the OSD (go to OSD tab to invoke the OSD by clicking the Send OSD button.

DV Tab
If you wish to invoke LLDV from source to the display output, then this is an important setting to set for those who use Automix option under the EDID tab instead of the Custom option. By default, if the 4K content has a DV flag and your source is able to support LLDV, then you will see a bunch of data strings captured in the DV meta-data [from source] segment. If there is no DV flag, the field box will be empty. I believe the HDR and DV tab used to be in a single tab setting but in the latest firmware ver 0.53, it appears that the DV has its own segment while HDR is combined with AVI to form the HDR/AVI tab. For the most part, there is no need for you to change any settings here but should you feel the need to play with the settings, remember to hit the <Create If> button followed by the <Send DV> button to send out the custom setting to your display.



I did not play with the CEC and Macro tabs. I will be checking out the XBox One X which also has Dolby Vision later today. Meanwhile here's a sample shot of a scene from Alita. One with HDR and the other one with LLDV.





Here's a Netflix screencap from my NVidia Shield TV 2019 when I toggle between HDR and LLDV mode.








I will update the settings as we go along...

« Last Edit: May 23, 2020, 12:50 by desray »

Offline tsammyc

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Re: HD Fury
« Reply #200 on: May 23, 2020, 13:33 »
Excellent writeup as usual Desray

Offline tsammyc

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Re: HD Fury
« Reply #201 on: May 23, 2020, 13:36 »
I spent 3 hours last night watching Hobbs and Shaw :) I used it as a test because it has a Dolby Vision UHD and has an initially dark night scene and then goes into a split screen with Hobbs on one side and Shaw on the other and each side has either a warm or cold color temperature and then it changes. I watched 5 versions of it

1. Panny UB820 with Dolby Vision set to ON passing LLDV to Vertex2
2. Panny UB820 with Dolby Vision set to OFF passing HDR10 to Vertex2
3. Apple TV app on Firestick 4K in Dolby Vision passing LLDV to Vertex2
4. Movies Anywhere app on Firestick 4K in HDR10 passing HDR10 to Vertex2
5. Panny UB820 with Dolby Vision set to OFF passing HDR10 directly to projector

On the whole everything looked pretty similar with a slight preference to the Panny 820 with Dolby Vision set to OFF. The Panasonic HDR Optimizer seems to be doing its job well with my Benq W2700. The image seemed sharper and colors seem more natural. There was also an evenness about the HDR which I didn't see with the Dolby Vision sources.

Is this Panny's HDR Optimizer doing tone mapping for a low nit projector being better than Dolby Vision being converted by a player and put into a HDR10 container? I don't know. The colors, greyscale etc could be off on Dolby Vision as the projector wasn't calibrated.

Overall, I'm quite happy just to be able to get Dolby Vision on my projector and what I'm seeing looks good but its hard for me judge overall whether one is better than the other. I strain constantly to see the specular highlight detail on high nit scenes, but without two screens side by side, its just not possible for me to see such minute details.

Offline tsammyc

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Re: HD Fury
« Reply #202 on: May 23, 2020, 13:44 »
Hi tsammy, yes I Change to 125 50 then click on “create if” and send HDR . When I tick  the HDR option, I can see the display showing 125 50 info for 30 seconds.


Sorry to ask such a basic question. Anyway on my set, the settings remain forever once I <Send HDR>.

Offline winwinc81

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Re: HD Fury
« Reply #203 on: May 23, 2020, 14:07 »
All very hardcore! The PQ is amazing on the DV!

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Offline ronildoq

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Re: HD Fury
« Reply #204 on: May 23, 2020, 14:09 »
Wah fantastic write up desray !! Solid ! Holiao, very detailed !

Look forward to more information along the way

The other benefit with this is on the bright subtitles when tone mapping kicks in. Because each time subtitles come on, the darker scenes suddenly go bright, then as subtitles goes off, the whole screen goes dim again.. that was my previous experience with the OLED HDR. To circumvent this, I used a lighter gray , slightly darker colours for subtitles

I don’t have this issue now with the Pj using dolby vision LLDV from Oppo . I used to see the same issue with white coloured subtitles with HDR10. Though now I continue to use a darker subtitle colour, also being set using the Oppo controls .


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Offline ronildoq

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Re: HD Fury
« Reply #205 on: May 23, 2020, 14:15 »
Sorry to ask such a basic question. Anyway on my set, the settings remain forever once I <Send HDR>.


Hi Sammy , don’t worry. It is not basic at all. We are all learning by the day. This HDR thing is not so straight forward as we do not have a standard for HDR. We can only try and find which curve works best.

Mine doesn’t stay even after I click send HDR . That’s why I was looking for some “save button” to lock down this information on the vertex2, but can’t seem to find. I’ll do Factory reset. See how it goes. I don’t know why it keeps coming back to 4000 MaxCLL each time I use the browser interface


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Offline ronildoq

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Re: HD Fury
« Reply #206 on: May 23, 2020, 14:48 »
Pls use Chromapure pattern generator to invoke BT2020 test patterns to do a HDR calibration. This will expand the CIE Color spectrum to BT2020. But we will be calibrating at 75% saturation and intensity to achieve P3-DCI Color gamut within the BT2020 container.

There is no need to calibrate for HDR using DV mode when used in conjunction with the Vertex 2. We just need to get the base HDR10 layer tuned with Chromapure s/w.

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I actually found tremendous benefit with the LLDV HDR calibration so far on the BenQ using chromapure. If I use the default out of the box settings, it’s not nice. I first attempted white balance calibration, with LLDV engaged. Making sure the grayscale is as close as possible for RGB



RGB is very balanced from 20 -100% as can be seen. You can also see how from 40% above, tone mapping is working as intended with a hard knee from 50% onwards to 60%. Same thing for HDR, below 10% I’m not seeing the blackest of blacks. Jvc probably will be better in this area

Then I calibrated the screen to rec709 container 75% saturation and 75 intensity, forcing SDR to use LLDV but preserving the rec709 container when attempting calibration. This allows me to accurately hit the saturation targets according to the BenQ 5700’s capability. Although I know it’s capable for 100% dcip3 colour space, I stood with with my decision for 75% saturation and 75% intensity within the rec709 container instead of rec2020 container.

I also didn’t follow chromapure’s advice to calibrate it to 50% saturation and 50 intensity using the rec2020 colour space. It doesn’t look good to me. I ditched that in favour of rec709 75% but using SDR source material



All spot on!

Why I went with 75% saturation on the colour calibration is because it looks much more natural to me, even on original SDR calibration without LLDV. I prefer 75% targets over 100% saturation targets because not many content on display has 100% colour. It made more sense for me to calibrate for a perfect 75% saturation target

This is highly noticeable on screen from what I’m seeing post calibration using the hybrid approach above. It is the exact reason why I’m saying dolby vision is superior to HDR10, HDR10+ . I can see the differences clearly on how the tone mapping is working with dolby vision

Very nice to know Xbox also allows for dolby vision. So nice. I have an old Xbox too bad doesn’t support


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Offline desray

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Re: HD Fury
« Reply #207 on: May 23, 2020, 14:49 »
I actually found tremendous benefit with the LLDV HDR calibration so far on the BenQ using chromapure. If I use the default out of the box settings, it’s not nice. I first attempted white balance calibration, with LLDV engaged. Making sure the grayscale is as close as possible for RGB



RGB is very balanced from 20 -100% as can be seen. You can also see how from 40% above, tone mapping is working as intended with a hard knee from 50% onwards to 60%. Same thing for HDR, below 10% I’m not seeing the blackest of blacks. Jvc probably will be better in this area

Then I calibrated the screen to rec709 container 75% saturation and 75 intensity, forcing SDR to use LLDV but preserving the rec709 container when attempting calibration. This allows me to accurately hit the saturation targets according to the BenQ 5700’s capability. Although I know it’s capable for 100% dcip3 colour space, I stood with with my decision for 75% saturation and 75% intensity within the rec709 container instead of rec2020 container.

I also didn’t follow chromapure’s advice to calibrate it to 50% saturation and 50 intensity using the rec2020 colour space. It doesn’t look good to me. I ditched that in favour of rec709 75% but using SDR source material



All spot on!

Why I went with 75% saturation on the colour calibration is because it looks much more natural to me, even on original SDR calibration without LLDV. I prefer 75% targets over 100% saturation targets because not many content on display has 100% colour. It made more sense for me to calibrate for a perfect 75% saturation target

This is highly noticeable on screen from what I’m seeing post calibration using the hybrid approach above. It is the exact reason why I’m saying dolby vision is superior to HDR10, HDR10+ . I can see the differences clearly on how the tone mapping is working with dolby vision

Very nice to know Xbox also allows for dolby vision. So nice. I have an old Xbox too bad doesn’t support


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Well done.


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Offline ronildoq

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Re: HD Fury
« Reply #208 on: May 23, 2020, 16:01 »
Ok points clarified. I have now confirmed the following for this setting using HDR10



By using HDR10, I can see clearly what the controls does. Change the primaries here to rec2020. Set the respective values

125, 0.005, 125 50 ( benQ 5700 only ) other projectors will vary depending on the capabilities of each equipment

Click “ create if” send HDR , then I see this



125 50 is displaying correctly.

I’m not able to change things on the fly. I will have to first stop the video. Clicking on refresh, doesn’t set it back to default .

I will have to close the browser, it then comes back to the default value. I will still need to click “ create if “ and “ send HDR “

It then sends back the default value Which is 4000 0.0001 and 1000,400



So the refresh button has no effect whatsoever. If we want to change any values, we must first hit create jf and send HDR . Then it will update the values


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Offline desray

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Re: HD Fury
« Reply #209 on: May 23, 2020, 16:17 »
I spent 3 hours last night watching Hobbs and Shaw :) I used it as a test because it has a Dolby Vision UHD and has an initially dark night scene and then goes into a split screen with Hobbs on one side and Shaw on the other and each side has either a warm or cold color temperature and then it changes. I watched 5 versions of it

1. Panny UB820 with Dolby Vision set to ON passing LLDV to Vertex2
2. Panny UB820 with Dolby Vision set to OFF passing HDR10 to Vertex2
3. Apple TV app on Firestick 4K in Dolby Vision passing LLDV to Vertex2
4. Movies Anywhere app on Firestick 4K in HDR10 passing HDR10 to Vertex2
5. Panny UB820 with Dolby Vision set to OFF passing HDR10 directly to projector

On the whole everything looked pretty similar with a slight preference to the Panny 820 with Dolby Vision set to OFF. The Panasonic HDR Optimizer seems to be doing its job well with my Benq W2700. The image seemed sharper and colors seem more natural. There was also an evenness about the HDR which I didn't see with the Dolby Vision sources.

Is this Panny's HDR Optimizer doing tone mapping for a low nit projector being better than Dolby Vision being converted by a player and put into a HDR10 container? I don't know. The colors, greyscale etc could be off on Dolby Vision as the projector wasn't calibrated.

Overall, I'm quite happy just to be able to get Dolby Vision on my projector and what I'm seeing looks good but its hard for me judge overall whether one is better than the other. I strain constantly to see the specular highlight detail on high nit scenes, but without two screens side by side, its just not possible for me to see such minute details.

Astute observations there Tsammyc. I think bro Doggie can relate more to the Panny's HDR Optimizer and he probably agreed with you as well. :)

Speaking of HDR10 vs DV, do take note that sometimes HDR10 provides a much brighter scene with more shadow details compared to a DV layer. This is not uncommon. In fact, I have made quite a few comparisons of my own in the past on my friend's 4K OLED TV (which I helped to calibrate), I have discovered that although DV's wider color gamut (12-bit) versus HDR10 (10-bit) should have a significant impact on the overall contrast and colors...this not always true. It really depends on how the content is mixed and whether proper HDR static meta-data provides a proper MaxCLL and FALL values for the display output to do a more accurate DTM. DV's key strength is the ability to reproduce wider shades of colors compared to the HDR10 layer. As such, we can see different shades of red on the rose petals or the skin tones of a person. When it comes to perceived contrast and shadow details, it will be hard to find a winner between HDR10 and DV. In fact, DV tends to project a dimmer image in some dim-lit scenes which even resulted in some black crush! This does not happen on the HDR10 layer. But when it comes to a particularly bright scene (like say a flickering candle light, an intense explosion or bolts of lightning that lit up a night sky to name a few), this is where DV shines as it is able to reproduce more intense imagery as it work its DTM magic on a scene-by-scene basis but so for HDR which has to reply on an average MaxCLL and MaxFALL meta-data. If we are talking about a movie with an average peak brightness, chances are it is harder to pcik a winner here. Hence it does come as a surprise that Panny's HDR Optimizer or even JVC projector with FrameAdapt HDR feature activated may actually produce good HDR imagery when only HDR10 layer is engaged. Of course, one can argue that with the Vertex 2, we can now have the best of both worlds with the ability to select a custom EDID setting to optimized our viewing experience on any kind of 4K HDR content on our non-DV capable display output - the Projector.

 

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