Author Topic: Journey resumes - Line source VS Point source  (Read 7908 times)

Offline ronildoq

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Re: Journey resumes - Line source VS Point source
« Reply #30 on: March 22, 2020, 19:18 »
wonder how the calibration works next?...


Yea that’s the part I’m working out now... have some leave

Offline ronildoq

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Re: Journey resumes - Line source VS Point source
« Reply #31 on: March 23, 2020, 08:53 »
For the first time.... the Mrs said... nice ! Coming from the Mrs , hard to believe. She says, very neat job. the boy says, “ what ??? It’s awesome !” She immediately went and checked, how it was secured on the back wall, tried to shake it, rock solid !! Didn’t move an inch, nicely anchored to the back wall

Pass laaaaa

Seems like everyone got my virus at home, line source virus 🦠

Congrats synthesis, great Job! All of us love it!

Next Up , EQ and calibration to dial in the system , I’ll have a quick listen when I get the change tonight

Offline ronildoq

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Re: Journey resumes - Line source VS Point source
« Reply #32 on: March 26, 2020, 08:42 »
I had a chance to fire the system up yesterday to quickly check how it sounds. I couldn’t  proceed with my calibration as I am still awaiting for the arrival of my Purifi1ET400 monoblocks for the LCR, they have been delayed due to covid with transportation.will arrive but delayed for now.

So quickly powered on, set the exact same settings as the previous 2x 2 pairs, including the controls. 4 of my familiar midbass, book of Eli, true legend, flash point and unbroken, First impression

Plus point

1.) I am experiencing very good bass imaging, this tracks the online screen action. U know how you have your mains at left and right ? The image emanates from centre. The SMTs behind AT screen also plays a role, fantastic bass imaging

2) I’m experiencing height bass, tactile to the head. Kicking scene in true legend to the head is back ! Previously only possible with Ken Kreisel Kk12. Opening demo unbroken scenes, with all the planes whooshing past overhead, is something I have never experienced before, anywhere.... that good !

3) I could feel every bass texture n detail. I’ve been playing true legend for years now, 1001 times, never have I experienced spinning bass. There is one particular kungfu scene where he catches and spins the guy 360 degrees. In that instance, the bass movement was spinning together with guy. Like a twister effect hitting you. Again something I have never experienced

4) with a higher XO, the mains and surrounds come to live, very very defined with superb decay

5) bullet scenes from book of Eli is amazing, the pressure on the chest, wow! Combined with BEQ deep bass extension when the shotgun was used, is out of this world feeling

6) decoupling is a big success. Played the Atmos lead scene, the physchoacoustic bass steering is moving on chest level now, superb imaging. The floors and doors no longer resonate. For those who have demoed the leaf scene, this one now is several levels up, unbelievable . I see the 2 benefits now for the granite, first to isolate, second to position the subs slightly higher

The cons

1) disjointed gain levels between mains and subs. Lotsa work to be done on gain optimisation. Playing some music, the upper range bass was overwhelming. Looks like I’ll need to work on a house curve for this, with another separate profile specially for music

2) woofers sound stiff, not as smooth. I suppose it needs time to break in, I can hear the clear signature of bass not moving in phase as a result of woofers not run in. It doesn’t sound as smooth as the previous pair. Has got that less “bouncy” effect

3) other resonant frequencies exists now that was not there before, I Guess I’ll have to pull out REW to Re look at it. It sounds like a 30+ hz resonant frequency. Still haven’t recalibrated room perfect but this I believe can be solved

In conclusion, gain optimisation, house curve and room EQ needs to be worked on, ALL OVER AGAIN . Getting pairs to stack and play, doesn’t work . It needs re visiting , no shortcuts indeed

Offline kennyluck2000

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Re: Journey resumes - Line source VS Point source
« Reply #33 on: March 26, 2020, 16:12 »
Finally up and running... Congrats  :)

Offline ronildoq

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Re: Journey resumes - Line source VS Point source
« Reply #34 on: March 26, 2020, 16:48 »
Very nice ahh bro, the “tup tup tup “ sound no more d with the decoupling exercise

Can’t wait to set up the system, now I’m clearing leave but amplifiers stuck in Europe... Cham...

First thing it arrives need to sanitise, by right virus should be dead , if any. But better to be safe than sorry

Offline ronildoq

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Re: Journey resumes - Line source VS Point source
« Reply #35 on: March 29, 2020, 10:05 »
Wahhh 1/2 time reporting, the amplifiers are in, 1st thing sanitise, arrived from Europe , Purifi 1ET400





The internals, damn good , see and zoom in , neat and tidy, good routing of cables by Apollon



Plug and play, first impression, caught me off guard was the quality of bass from the amplifier, immediately, instantly I can hear the tightening of the bass, damn good. Needless to say, once the bass is clean sounding, the smearing on upper frequencies no longer exists, the results are a clean sounding system with tight bass. It had the weight of the Class A monoblocks, but did better in terms of clarity, sound stage and tightening of bass. My first experience with amplifiers tightening up the bass, never experienced that on the emotiva Nor ati amplifiers and the ncore versions. I suppose it’s to do with the high damping factor. Not sure, but it sure as hell rocks !

If you have plans to build line array, may I suggest you look into the Purifi PTT6.5, these woofers, when paired with the purifi amplifiers 1ET400, are absolutely stunning TOP notch midbass . Speed, accuracy, tightening is already present on the purify amplifier

https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/reviews/purifi-ptt65-woofer-and-1et400a-amplifier-technology-review-r866/?fbclid=IwAR2FKIOQybX2BURPQFj-fMMydWa_wpRbqxe7VRlYHPJ0EnoapYtqW-eD4i4

Check it out, it’s worth it if u r into line source like me, definitely go this route. I would if I can rewind time

Quote from peter lyngdorf

“Thanks for all the positive comments. I have to say that the hard work was done by the team - their tenacity and dedication has been astonishing. BTW what impressed me the most was that this driver seems to uncompress music as if you just found a much better master of the same performance.”

Now I understand why... Here is a pic of the ptt6.5



They have extremely Low intermodulation distortion , from the guys behind Purifi directly

Quote

to lower distortion substantially - especially IMD. A normal half roll has a radiating area that modulated strongly with excursion. This surround eliminates this issue

by having symmetry in the geometry - both in going and outgoing sections

most surrounds are only out going or in going so unipolar - that favors motion in one direction

Unquote

This week running in the woofers still, still a bit stiff, using brown noise.

I’ll be sharing the steps here, on the EQ process, stay tuned. Very Long process, hope this will help everyone here

Offline ronildoq

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Re: Journey resumes - Line source VS Point source
« Reply #36 on: March 30, 2020, 23:07 »
1/2 time reporting again, the leaf scene again from atmos demo, is fantastic with the Purifi amplifiers. Previously was the bass, this time, the cracking sound of the tree branches from the leaf, very tight sounding crack sound can be heard from the branches, very defined, as the energy sweeps in circular motion, the higher frequencies sound superbly clean, deep tight sounding & it is amazingly fantastic! Top class! None of the wooden structures resonate, playback at -18 at night. The purifi is very good for both HT and Music

Cant wait to finish the job, very very immersive the set up now..... still need a little bit more time to run in, lets visit the steps soon.... How to approach such a complex set up?

6 overhead speakers, 2 front heights, heights tucked behind AT SCreen
Pair of mains, centre tucked behind AT Screen
pair of surrounds, and surround back, 15 speakers!! lol

subs will be
4x F18
12x 10'

Ok lets go one by one.... Speaker placement first.  i use a file to playback, to trace the acoustical centre for the mains... you can find this file here

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PcslVofDVArJCRSE52uo9Dh_I9H-pJ-4/view?usp=sharing

Play this file, there are a total of 9 Tok Tok, the first should be outside your left speakers, the last should be outside your right. The 5th Tok Tok should be at Dead centre. That’s how u use this file

The rest is pretty much fixed, surrounds at 90 degrees, atmos centre speaker 5cm behind above MLP, front back atmos equidistant. The entire speaker placement are all equidistant. This creates a "phantom image" at front width channels. Between the surrounds and surround backs, there is a second "Phantom image", back width.

Thats pretty much it, on speaker placement, Equidistant the way to go...... simple straight forward

Offline ronildoq

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Journey resumes - Line source VS Point source
« Reply #37 on: April 03, 2020, 22:23 »
Still running in the Drivers.... tomorrow will start my process, with subs... before that, had to make sure the new REW 5.20 beta 46 was working on my laptop, and yes it’s working !! Took some quick measurements since i have completed the placement, and verified the imaging for the mains. The above files can be used to find that “width” channel, between mains and surround, again the centre between the two is what gives us the width . But I didn’t do that



The above left and right speakers were measured with XO of 100hz engaged (previous EQ profile) , no eq nor subs, the above is the original frequency response of the mains

The left speakers, measured in red, has a much more decent response, down to 100hz , compared to the green, on the right speakers. 300hz looks to be good point cross the mains to the line array subs . If it doesn’t work, I’ll have to revert to the 100hz XO point. At present, all speakers from mains to surrounds to atmos to LFE are all set at 100hz. No double bass

Next I zoomed in to the RT60 reverberation times , plot from Topt



Pretty even looking. But I never look at RT60, just sharing. It shows the room , measured at 6x8m, has an average 260ms decay time

What I prefer to look at, is the filtered impulse response



Above in green is the right speakers, the first 10ms decays pretty quickly from 0 down to -25db, slightly rise up in energy from 10-20ms, then decays off nicely , gradually, and most importantly, evenly by the time it hits 60secs

What I like in this, is the gradually decay in energy, this is very pleasant sounding, a little bit of silence, burst of energy, and decays off into the room, sweet and nice. This is much more meaningful to me, compared to RT60

Very happy with my mains. Nothing much to do there. Exactly where I want it to be. Next will be the most challenging of all, line source woofers !!
« Last Edit: April 04, 2020, 15:58 by ronildoq »

Offline ronildoq

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Re: Journey resumes - Line source VS Point source
« Reply #38 on: April 03, 2020, 22:29 »
Glimpse of the woofers being run in, nice workout, using brown noise, straight from Apple TV , with the rest of the gear muted, they have been been working hard intermittently for an hour or so

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/8DKbtgTZsJE&fs=1" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/8DKbtgTZsJE&fs=1</a>

Offline ronildoq

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Re: Journey resumes - Line source VS Point source
« Reply #39 on: April 03, 2020, 23:04 »


The first thing we always start off, is the individual sub response. We need to understand what’s going on when you place that subs at that location

Let’s zoom in to the left line array woofers



First in blue, is with all windows and doors open

Then in magenta doors closed with no psi

Highlighted, is doors close + windows closed + PSI active trap on, look at the even response down to 10hz, the null at 70hz brought up and the peak at 30hz gone

Let’s zoom in to the spectrogram

Windows and doors open



Windows open no psi active trap



Windows closed, doors closed, PSI on !!



Look at how much more cleaner it is at 20hz , very nice, time domain measurements are promising, before any eq

Conclusion, Close that windows !!!
« Last Edit: April 04, 2020, 16:06 by ronildoq »

Offline ronildoq

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Re: Journey resumes - Line source VS Point source
« Reply #40 on: April 04, 2020, 16:08 »



The above is the spectrogram for the right array woofers, as you can see, at my place, this 58hz problem won’t go away ! The problem for this frequency, is the opposing end corner, the doorway to the kitchen

I had the door changed to an acoustic door, it doesn’t help much ! You can still see the problem here with the line source woofers . It’s a room mode at MLP when subs are placed at right side of the front corner

The front right woofers energy, accumulates at the corner at left back, kitchen area. I can’t put a PSI there, not practical at all

There will be ups and downs , this is something I have come to accept and move on, 58hz kitchen door area problem.

The peak in energy is at 65hz , at time 78ms ( as can be seen from the black dotted line) , this peak will be the annoying peak, that will cause ringing if not controlled. This ringing will smear the upper frequencies if not contained. It’s important to kill this off. The only option I have is, EQ

If u zoom in to the frequency response again,



You will notice the response has lots peaks and valley, unlike the left line source, where it is much more even . This is mainly because the right side of the woofer, is near the balcony area, where the windows are. There isnt any solid concrete, beside it is kids play area, followed by window.

From here, u will understand that the windows are your biggest enemy when it comes to sound ......
[/quote]

Offline ronildoq

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Re: Journey resumes - Line source VS Point source
« Reply #41 on: April 04, 2020, 16:32 »
updated the pics, hope its slightly clearer. ok lets zoom in further



the above is the previous 2x 10' vs 6x 10' seas. Look at the levels, almost identical. Nice estimate so now i can compare this side by side. Zoom in to blue line, 6x10'  and you will notice there is a nice extension down lower freq to 10hz, much smoother response from 46hz to 64hz. 25hz is registering +13db!!

next we zoom in to the right line source


below 40hz and above 70hz, so much more output.. got me wondering, what have i been missing. No wonder, francis mentioned the bass is weaker at the right section, spot on! can be seen from the measurements. slightly off balance previously on the right. Nothing special there, the response is exactly as we have predicted, nothing changed much.

the only freq response benefit with the line source, will be derived from the upper octave above the schroeder frequency

Offline ronildoq

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Re: Journey resumes - Line source VS Point source
« Reply #42 on: April 04, 2020, 16:43 »
lets look at the spectrogram...



2x left woofers above



6x left woofers above



2x right woofers above



6x right woofers above

As we can see, the more the drivers, the more the energy needs to be controlled. Doesnt mean its good to blast it away. I still prefer to have controlled bass, this is the area i need to tackle, whilst not losing the texture, details, impact and layers. its important to have clean sound. thats what im after end of the day

My priority will be in sequence as follows:

1. Good timing response
2. Even decay rate
3. Clear sounding bass resonant free
4. Nothing should be rattling
5. Headroom
6. Smooth freq response
7. SPLs

im not so concerned with response and SPL. I like to focus more on good timing and even decay. That is what i am after

Offline Jag

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Re: Journey resumes - Line source VS Point source
« Reply #43 on: April 04, 2020, 17:01 »
Bro, seems that your peak energy delay is all over the place from 0 to as much as ~100ms at 65hz.
Electronics : Denon 7200, MiniDSP Dirac 88A, Emotiva XPA-5 Gen2, MiniDSP 2x4HD for BEQ
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Offline ronildoq

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Re: Journey resumes - Line source VS Point source
« Reply #44 on: April 04, 2020, 17:04 »
Bro, seems that your peak energy delay is all over the place from 0 to as much as ~100ms at 65hz.

yea, exactly thats the RAW response of individual subs at its location, havent gone into time alignment and EQ as yet. Going to dive into this today... will share more details again once i have aligned all the subs, including the seatons pair

 

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