Author Topic: Audyssey Dynamic EQ, should I enable or disable it?!  (Read 7429 times)

Offline Bbos37

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Re: Audyssey Dynamic EQ, should I enable or disable it?!
« Reply #105 on: November 19, 2019, 09:36 »
   
Audyssey Labs
In AVRs that don't have the Dynamic EQ Reference Level Offset feature, you can achieve the same thing by turning down the digital input trim for that source.  Onkyo calls it IntelliVolume.  Turn it down by 10 dB.  Then you can turn the master volume up by 10 dB to get back to the same listening level. Dynamic EQ will apply less compensation because it will see a higher source level.


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Offline Bbos37

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Re: Audyssey Dynamic EQ, should I enable or disable it?!
« Reply #106 on: November 19, 2019, 09:45 »
In the discussion on DEQ I did not see any one mention about the offset levels.
Try those offset levels recommend by Audyssey  and comment on it.



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Offline desray

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Re: Audyssey Dynamic EQ, should I enable or disable it?!
« Reply #107 on: November 19, 2019, 12:10 »
In the discussion on DEQ I did not see any one mention about the offset levels.
Try those offset levels recommend by Audyssey  and comment on it.



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Yes, I will be touching on this Reference Level Offsets (RLOs) very soon...I'm just waiting to see if there are members who wish to comment about it from their experience. I can explain the theory and how it works but more importantly how it translates into real-time usage. That is what I am after.

Offline Jag

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Re: Audyssey Dynamic EQ, should I enable or disable it?!
« Reply #108 on: November 19, 2019, 12:25 »
In the discussion on DEQ I did not see any one mention about the offset levels.
Try those offset levels recommend by Audyssey  and comment on it.



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I did mention in post #6 that DEQ without setting Ref Level consciously or correctly will not render an optimised Audyssey experience.

Ref Level offset is critical for proper Audyssey experience, so I’ll let Desray discuss further on that.
Electronics : Denon 7200, MiniDSP Dirac 88A, Emotiva XPA-5 Gen2
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Offline honyewl

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Re: Audyssey Dynamic EQ, should I enable or disable it?!
« Reply #109 on: November 19, 2019, 14:01 »
For the reference level, I wish there is an easy quick select button for my Denon AVR3300W, similar for example to the surround mode (Music, Movie, Game, and Pure).

The point is that we don’t really know what reference level the material is mixed at. 

For most movies, I guess it is a no brainer at 0dB.

How about for concert movie? For example my earlier post of Nirvana DVD - bass just got too heavy, and it sounded much better after changing ref to 10dB.

If there is an easy quick button for ref. change then we don’t have to rely solely on our own ‘feel’ as to whether the bass is too ‘heavy’ or infact it’s what the artist intended.

For example, is Game of Thrones considered a film mixed at 0dB? At 0dB ref, the Blu-ray disc sounds a bit heavy in bass, but subjectively not ‘unpleasant’. And I was too lazy to goto layers of menu to change the ref level to see which one I prefer...


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Offline desray

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Re: Audyssey Dynamic EQ, should I enable or disable it?!
« Reply #110 on: November 19, 2019, 17:46 »
Let's dive deeper into the DEQ discussion while we are at it. I'm glad to see more bros here contributing their experience on the use of DEQ along with Audyssey.

If I were to tell you that the underlying objective of DEQ is actually what Bass EQ (BEQ) is trying to achieve all these while? Are you surprise? If we dissect the concepts of DEQ and BEQ, they are probably more similar than you think. While DEQ is a "feature" that works in tandem with Audyssey MultEQ XT32 and BEQ can be implemented using an external DSP like miniDSP to "restore" the SPL of the bass at the modal frequency range - e.g. between 20Hz & 50Hz. I have mentioned umpteen times that the human's auditory perceptivity of bass in the low-frequency range (usually starts from 50Hz and below) is softer when compared to say a 80Hz tone. According to studies, our hearing is most sensitive in the 2KHz to 4KHz range. The critical spectrum of the frequency range for humans to discern equal loudness be it at the higher end or low end falls somewhere between 500Hz & 5KHz. Any frequency range that falls outside of this critical spectrum will require some kind of compensation to be made  - i.e. boost the output (SPL) level in order to achieve the "same" level of output.

According to Audyssey, the "target" Reference curve employed by Audyssey followed loosely to the Harman Curve - in its simplest form, it means a gradual roll-off of high frequency towards the end of the frequency spectrum - usually starting from 4KHz all the way till 22KHz. The drop is gradual from anywhere between -2db from 4KHz onwards till 10KHz and steeper roll-off at -6db from 10KHz to 22KHz. Why Harman Curve and not other target curves? Well, according to Audyssey the roll-off is needed in the higher frequency range to avoid ear fatigue especially from a "brighter" speakers in an untreated room - meaning a lot of sound energy (waves) hitting against hard surfaces which makes listening almost unbearable for movies authored at a higher compression rate.

While we now understand the high spectrum of the frequency range and its implications, let us look at what Audyssey Reference Target Curve does to the lower spectrum of the frequency range - i.e. from 250Hz to 20Hz. This is where the contention comes in. Audyssey without DEQ enabled will strive for a "flat" frequency response. This is the reason why when DEQ is turned off, it attenuates (weakens) the bass, thereby making it "less" boomy. For members who did not follow strictly on ideal speaker/subwoofer placement ritual (like using the Harman Room Mode Calculator) may often find their bass to be muddy and bloated when listening at a reasonable Master Volume (MV) and this can be anywhere between -25db and -10db. The issue with DEQ turned off is that, one will feel the urge to increase the gain on your subwoofer(s) or the trim values in your AVR to compensate for the "loss" in bass output in the lower frequency spectrum. The problem with this method is the need for you to constantly fiddle with the gains/trim levels for different kinds of content being thrown at. With an external DSP like miniDSP, one can implement filters at the key modal frequency and apply a custom "house curve" to compensate for the drop in overall bass output (SPL level). That is the reason I have never ever doubted Roni, Jag and a few other members who used miniDSP to fix some of the "undesirable" effects caused by DEQ.

So what exactly caused DEQ to have some form of undesirable "side-effects" when enabled?! If this is a poorly-implemented feature by Audyssey, why then there is a split of 50-50 amongst members when it comes to DEQ? Another problem associated with DEQ. That is when it boosts the bass output at the lower frequency range, DEQ actually implements this "boost" to other channels as well instead of just the (.1 channel) LFE. Furthermore, Audyssey also implemented their very own Loudness Management algorithm on the surrounds and surround back channels by running it at least 1 - 2db hotter when DEQ is engaged. This is to compensate for the "softer" surround effects when we listen to a lower MV below the Reference level. So DEQ introduced 2 types of boost - i.e. boost in low-frequency range to maintain a bass level that plays at the same output as the rest of the speakers and the other is the boost in surrounds levels. These arbitrary "boosts" created by DEQ makes it harder for us to control IF you did not have an ideal HT setup like the good placement of speakers and subwoofers and proper Audyssey calibration. But I wouldn't throw in the white towel into the ring just yet. The "workaround" could be found in the Reference Offset Levels (RLO).

But before we dive in on the topic of RLO, it is important to realize that both DEQ and Audyssey worked hand-in-hand to create the Harman Target Curve. Since most of us are now aware that DEQ has to be turned on in order to get back the missing or weaker bass output at the lower frequency range. Now that we have a better idea of how the "full effects" of DEQ can render your HT system to sound worse...we can now touch on the RLO in the next post.

Offline Bbos37

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Re: Audyssey Dynamic EQ, should I enable or disable it?!
« Reply #111 on: November 19, 2019, 22:37 »
Bro s who are into this mombo Jambo tech stuff please proceed, most of us are basic HT enthusiast there for please take a sip of you favourite drink put on your favourite stuff and enjoy your investment.
That’s me take.


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Offline desray

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Re: Audyssey Dynamic EQ, should I enable or disable it?!
« Reply #112 on: November 20, 2019, 11:43 »

Reference Level Offsets (RLOs) working with Audyssey, DEQ and MV

Since there are some undesirable effects associated with the use of DEQ in some cases – e.g. usually in the realm of sub-par bass. Audyssey introduced the Reference Level Offset (RLO). As the name implies, it is the amount of offset or deviation from the Reference level. The DEQ is closely tied to the changes in MV and for RLO to work “as intended”, one will need to enable DEQ right at the start.
 
What I have gathered from AVSForum is that the RLO settings are applied in 5db increments as depicted below:
RLO at ‘0’ (Reference level) – Default setting
RLO at ‘-5db’ (Below Reference level)
RLO at ‘-10db’ (Below Reference level)
RLO at ‘-15db’ (Below Reference level)

What this simply means is that when you set the RLO at ‘-10db’ and the MV set at -10db, there is virtually no DEQ been engaged. If you set your MV at say -15db (usually that is my maximum listening volume for movies), you can expect DEQ to kick in and adds a bass boost in the low-frequency region anywhere between +1.0db (from 200Hz to 69Hz) and +2.0db (from 70Hz to 20Hz) and a corresponding increase in treble in the high-frequency region between +1.0db and +3.0db (from 10KHz to 22KHz). As mentioned, our hearing degrades as we listen at a lower volume for the lower frequency region (starting from 120Hz down to 20Hz) and high-frequency range from 5KHz and above. Recalled the audible range perceived by humans to be outputting pretty much the “same output (SPL) level” sits between the range of 500Hz and 5KHz. Recalled that I have mentioned earlier that DEQ shared some similar traits as BEQ in the sense that it tries to do 2 things – to restore and balance the SPL output at user’s preferred listening volume (MV) as well as to introduce a house-curve “dynamically” as it analyzes the movie sound mix in advance to determine the optimum bass and treble output. Here’s an overview of what DEQ (when enabled) is doing at various RLO settings:

With MV set at: -25db
RLO at ‘0’ (Reference level) – bass boost of +10.0db
RLO at ‘-5db’ (Below Reference level) – bass boost of +8.0db
RLO at ‘-10db’ (Below Reference level) – bass boost of +6.0db
RLO at ‘-15db’ (Below Reference level) – bass boost of +4.0db

With MV set at: -20db (Common listening level for most of us)
RLO at ‘0’ (Reference level) – bass boost of +8.0db
RLO at ‘-5db’ (Below Reference level) – bass boost of +6.0db
RLO at ‘-10db’ (Below Reference level) – bass boost of +4.0db
RLO at ‘-15db’ (Below Reference level) – bass boost of +2.0db

With MV set at: -15db (Common listening level for most of us)
RLO at ‘0’ (Reference level) – bass boost of +6.0db
RLO at ‘-5db’ (Below Reference level) – bass boost of +4.0db
RLO at ‘-10db’ (Below Reference level) – bass boost of +2.0db
RLO at ‘-15db’ (Below Reference level) – no boost in bass (At Reference level)

With MV set at: -10db
RLO at ‘0’ (Reference level) – bass boost of +4.0db
RLO at ‘-5db’ (Below Reference level) – bass boost of +2.0db
RLO at ‘-10db’ (Below Reference level) – no boost in bass (At Reference level)
RLO at ‘-15db’ (Below Reference level) – drop in bass of -2.0db (Listening at above Reference Level – DEQ will compensate by staving off the bass instead) – Not recommended!

With MV set at: -5db
RLO at ‘0’ (Reference level) – bass boost of +2.0db
RLO at ‘-5db’ (Below Reference level) – no boost in bass (At Reference level)
RLO at ‘-10db’ (Below Reference level) – drop in bass of -2.0db (Listening at above Reference Level – DEQ will compensate by staving off the bass instead) – Not recommended!
RLO at ‘-15db’ (Below Reference level) – drop in bass of -4.0db (Listening at above Reference Level – DEQ will compensate by staving off the bass instead) – Not recommended!

Based on the abovementioned combo of MV and RLO settings, we can see what kind of effects it has on the bass. Treble increase from anywhere between +1.0db to a maximum of +3.0db is less “impactful” as Audyssey claims that most listeners are “less sensitive” to high-frequency variations when compared to low frequency and I agreed.

My Settings (as a reference)
I usually listen at MV of between -20db and -15db. I have set a crossover for my speakers (LCR) at 80Hz. I also used Audyssey App to allow Mid-range Compensation (MRC) to do its work for a smoother crossover point between 2KHz and 3KHz and set my RLO at '0db' which translates to some +6db gain in bass at the lower frequency region. My bass is tight and punchy (to my own liking). I have also disengaged Dynamic Volume and instead opted for Dialog Enhancer under the Option setting to kick in at "Medium" setting for clarity in dialog for poorly implemented Dynamic Compression rate (DRC) bluray titles such as the case for the first Iron Man released in bluray (google for more details).

My recommendation is for those facing issues with less than ideal bass performance when DEQ is engaged to try the various RLO settings for a start to see if it improves the overall experience. Start with a "preferred MV" and then adjust the RLO accordingly to suit your needs. This is by no means a solution to better bass but rather an extra setting provided for you to reap the benefits of DEQ while minimizing the undesirable effects that come with it. Take note, proper speaker/subwoofer placement and proper calibration are 2 most important aspects to getting great HT experience.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2019, 12:14 by desray »

Offline honyewl

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Re: Audyssey Dynamic EQ, should I enable or disable it?!
« Reply #113 on: November 20, 2019, 13:08 »
Reference Level Offsets (RLOs) working with Audyssey, DEQ and MV

What this simply means is that when you set the RLO at ‘-10db’ and the MV set at -10db, there is virtually no DEQ been engaged. If you set your MV at say -15db (usually that is my maximum listening volume for movies), you can expect DEQ to kick in and adds a bass boost in the low-frequency region anywhere between +1.0db (from 200Hz to 69Hz) and +2.0db (from 70Hz to 20Hz) and a corresponding increase in treble in the high-frequency region between +1.0db and +3.0db (from 10KHz to 22KHz). As mentioned, our hearing degrades as we listen at a lower volume for the lower frequency region (starting from 120Hz down to 20Hz) and high-frequency range from 5KHz and above. Recalled the audible range perceived by humans to be outputting pretty much the “same output (SPL) level” sits between the range of 500Hz and 5KHz. Recalled that I have mentioned earlier that DEQ shared some similar traits as BEQ in the sense that it tries to do 2 things – to restore and balance the SPL output at user’s preferred listening volume (MV) as well as to introduce a house-curve “dynamically” as it analyzes the movie sound mix in advance to determine the optimum bass and treble output. Here’s an overview of what DEQ (when enabled) is doing at various RLO settings:
[/b]

Fantastic explanations.  I especially like your 3rd para - intuitive and common sensical, after you have explained it!

Thanks


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Offline desray

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Audyssey Dynamic EQ, should I enable or disable it?!
« Reply #114 on: November 21, 2019, 06:53 »
Still not convinced why DEQ is important? I’ll let this bald chap explains further what is the so-called “mid bass” slam (a misnomer according to him as it happens in the bass region and not the mid bass region that some often associate with) and why DEQ can “to a large extent” help to create that “house curve” provided you have done your calibration correctly and crossover the subwoofers at the right frequency. This takes a little trial and error though.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/Afy10voc5kc&fs=1" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/Afy10voc5kc&fs=1</a>


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« Last Edit: November 21, 2019, 07:13 by desray »