Author Topic: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound  (Read 1586 times)

Offline kennyluck2000

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Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« on: October 06, 2019, 02:31 »
I had been listened to many forum member sound system, especially those who really depend on nice looking graph to sound good...
Are you the one who need nice looking graph to sound best....
Are we tweaking our system to sound the way we really want.... if yes did your system sound fantastic after you achieve good flat graph...
Is your system sound good for both movie and music concert?
Do share your thoughts?

Offline Jag

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Re: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2019, 04:37 »
1) Nice graphs DO NOT mean nice sound.[/u]

However, measurements help me to quantifiably describe CHANGES to the sound I'm hearing as much as possible. This will help me graphically visualize what changes in frequency response I'm hearing in ULF, bass, midrange and treble compares like.

Measurements are just merely a visual way to describe what my ear is hearing. No amount of graphs will fully describe what "good" sounds like. However, graphs are a better way to describe sonic characteristics than poetically colourful vocabulary like boomy, lacking, sharp, chesty, boxy, honky, surreal.....etc

The cool things about measurements will help me replicate sounds from one setup to another relatively closely time and time again.


2) While I advocate measurements, I AM NOT AN ADVOCATE for flat graphs.[/u]

Flat sound is lifeless and sounds pathetic. Bass needs a house curve to sound shiok, and my tweaks are only for subwoofer channels; leave the mains to sound how the speakers are voiced by the manufacturer
 
Having heard so many sound system in HT, pro-audio, stage sounds, theater sounds, I have come to the conclusion that no single system cannot sound great for both movie and music. It will be acceptably good for both, but not great for both.


3) But guess what? Speaker designers, acousticians, sound engineers, professional installers all use measurements..... but all of them will know a horizontally flat graph will sound like shyte and to use measurement to correlate to what their ears hear for their professional objective.


4) Being able to replicate how flat graph sounds is the first waypoint for reference. After replicating reference, tweak for preference.
This is why Audyssey finally caved in to demands for user adjustable house curve when they were previously stubborn against it. Even THX does have its own ideas on flat frequency response. ...... There are 1001+++ articles that advocate that audio reproduction should have a house curve free from wild up-down swings throughout the entire frequency response. Slopes are ok, but violent up-down swings not ok.

5) In my opinion, audio is just a science to replicate art. Execute the technical tweaks to enhance appreciation of art. The audio science behind it is just a means to the end(art appreciation)..... not the reverse. 

Just my 2 cts.
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Offline desray

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Re: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2019, 09:36 »
1) Nice graphs DO NOT mean nice sound.

However, measurements help me to quantifiably describe CHANGES to the sound I'm hearing as much as possible. This will help me graphically visualize what changes in frequency response I'm hearing in ULF, bass, midrange and treble compares like.

Measurements are just merely a visual way to describe what my ear is hearing. No amount of graphs will fully describe what "good" sounds like. However, graphs are a better way to describe sonic characteristics than poetically colourful vocabulary like boomy, lacking, sharp, chesty, boxy, honky, surreal.....etc

The cool things about measurements will help me replicate sounds from one setup to another relatively closely time and time again.


2) While I advocate measurements, I AM NOT AN ADVOCATE for flat graphs.

Bass needs a house curve to sound shiok, and my tweaks are only for subwoofer channels; leave the mains to sound how the speakers are voiced by the manufacturer
 
Having heard so many sound system in HT, pro-audio, stage sounds, theater sounds, I have come to the conclusion that no single system cannot sound great for both movie and music. It will be acceptably good for both, but not great for both.

3) But guess what? Speaker designers, acousticians, sound engineers, professional installers all use measurements..... but all of them will know a horizontally flat graph will sound like shyte and to use measurement to correlate to what their ears hear for their professional objective.

4) Being able to replicate how flat graph sounds is the first waypoint for reference. After replicating reference, tweak for preference.
This is why Audyssey finally caved in to demands for user adjustable house curve when they were previously stubborn against it. Even THX does have its own ideas on flat frequency response. ...... There are 1001+++ articles that advocate that audio reproduction should have a house curve free from wild up-down swings throughout the entire frequency response. Slopes are ok, but violent up-down swings not ok.

5) In my opinion, audio is just a science to replicate art. Execute the technical tweaks to enhance appreciation of art. The audio science behind it is just a means to the end(art appreciation)..... not the reverse. 

Just my 2 cts.

Whao Jag...what are you doing at 4.30am?! Insomnia? LoL...

Agreed with all your points except for the part that "flat" response for subwoofers sounded like "crap" (I think it is a bit "harsh". After all, sound is "subjective", what sounds good to you does not necessarily suit another person's taste but we already knew that) but you did mention about tweaks for preference and that I cannot agree more with you. Flat subwoofer response sounded awesome for music based on my experience and I'm not an audiophile.

The reason why I advocate for "reference" (flat response curve) for "majority" of the members (inlcuding noobies and even old birds) is exactly the same reason you brought up - i.e. "no single system cannot sound great for both movie and music. It will be acceptably good for both, but not great for both". I do enjoy listening to some great music when I'm working on some project ideas...and I want a reasonably good sounding system when I need to fire up some Apple Music or Spotify tracks for listening pleasure to keep me going. Of course, that is not to say that I don't enjoy that rumble and "pants-flipping" ULF when watching a movie like Godzilla King of Monsters but UNLESS majority of the members are like you and a few others who have the technical know-how to play with the "affected frequency range" to get the best of both worlds; I will advise them to stick with a flat response curve which IMHO does both movie and music "acceptably" well w/o too much hassle.

My 2.5 cents...
« Last Edit: October 06, 2019, 09:42 by desray »

Offline desray

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Re: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2019, 09:51 »
I had been listened to many forum member sound system, especially those who really depend on nice looking graph to sound good...
Are you the one who need nice looking graph to sound best....
Are we tweaking our system to sound the way we really want.... if yes did your system sound fantastic after you achieve good flat graph...
Is your system sound good for both movie and music concert?
Do share your thoughts?

Just curious Kenny, are you talking about the HT speaker systems including/excluding the subwoofer response or are you asking primarily on the subwoofers response curve? If its the latter, then this topic is more appropriate in the Planet Bass.

BTW to answer your subject matter, "Do nice flat graph=Good Sound"...and my answer is "Yes" for both Movie and Music if done right. But if you are referring to "Great" sound that performs equally well for both music as well as movie, then we are probably going into the "preference" territory in which you may see some compromise and trade-offs depending on what you desire. There is a reason why purist have 2 separate systems in their HT den...but these days, many people decides to settle for "good" systems that performs resonably well for both music and movie. Let's face it, in Singapore, unless you lived in a landed property, commoners like me and many bros here don't have the luxury of having 2 setups in an already "small room". At the end of the day, it is your system, your choice :)
 
« Last Edit: October 06, 2019, 10:02 by desray »

Offline kennyluck2000

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Re: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2019, 10:35 »
Morning Jag and Desray.
Thanks for sharing your's valuable thoughts ;)

Offline ronildoq

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Re: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2019, 10:40 »
For me, it’s just one word to sum it up be it bass, midrange , treble anything...

TIMING

that’s all that matters to me for good sound

A perceived Flat response in a room with good timing is the best

If I have to choose between a flat response vs good timing response, id go for the latter anytime. All Drivers move in out start stop same time, including tweeters timing, damn solid


Offline kennyluck2000

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Re: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2019, 10:44 »
Thanks Byran for sharing your thoughts.

Offline Boxerfan88

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Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2019, 11:23 »
Are you the one who need nice looking graph to sound best....

Nope. My REW graph is quite ugly but it still sound so good.

Quote
Is your system sound good for both movie and music concert?
Do share your thoughts?

Yes, mine to me sounds very good for both HT & Stereo.

For Stereo, strangely my preference is minimum phase filter on the DAC...



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« Last Edit: October 06, 2019, 11:45 by Boxerfan88 »
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Offline kennyluck2000

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Re: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2019, 11:42 »
Thanks Boxerfan88 for sharing your different thoughts

Offline kenshin07

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Re: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2019, 13:18 »
I had a chance of able to achieve nice graph but i find the flat graph sound boring to me. In the end use ear to tune to my liking. Using rew as a reference.
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Offline Tiktokape

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Re: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2019, 13:32 »
If one can do up the room/hall and achieve a flat graph after acoustic treatment yet WAF, that’s definitely the ideal situation for all HTpile. Once that has been achieved, one has the reference point to tweak further to one’s preference. Even a set of entry system will also sound good from start.

Unless one seek the studio sounding that is accurate; however it may not appeal to those who seek musically.


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Offline rayleh

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Re: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2019, 14:03 »
I was pursing a flat FR for my subs and was able to achieve it with the help of DSP. However, I was advised not to focus too much on FR and also be mindful about timing, decay. Also, a hip use curve is essential IMO.

Offline kennyluck2000

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Re: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2019, 14:11 »
Thanks kenshin07, Tiktokape and reyleh for sharing...
 ;)

Offline sevenz

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Re: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2019, 16:08 »
Kenny - are u referring more to the subs FR/lower freq below 120hz in HT? I assume so :)

For me, 2 things come to mind.

1) for lower freq below 120hz, a straight line with room modal peaks all cut well and minimising wide range dips (assuming: dips are smoothened thru multiple subs & not boosted + subs are phase aligned), and low distortion, is more impt to me than a horizontally flat FR. And, good sound is to me also = minimizing audible vibrations in the house, where possible, which cutting peaks helps to a good extent.

2) if we have flat FR, I can still get the bass to sound & feel well "enough" thru increasing the sub's volume to match the dialogue volume. But, but, the problem about smaller listening rooms like in SG compared to Ang Mo country is that - the lower freq bass tend to sound softer to the ears than higher freq bass at the same measured SPL.

So more often that not, if i want 20hz to sound as loud to the ears Vs 90hz & feel the rumble, without a house curve, I need to bump up the sub(s)' volume. But this will mean that my mid bass will end up being over bloated because my mid bass will sound much louder to the ears. Causing the entire sound to be boomy.

So a house curve is very impt for me, within the 0-100hz region, to make lower bass frequencies sound equally balanced to my ears Vs higher bass freq  :) 

Lastly, agreed with bros here that horizontal flat FR is probably nicer for music.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2019, 16:56 by sevenz »

Offline kennyluck2000

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Re: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2019, 16:27 »
Thanks Sevenz for sharing your thoughts too...  :)

Offline sevenz

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Re: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2019, 16:39 »
Thanks Sevenz for sharing your thoughts too...  :)

so which frequencies are you more referring to in HT bro? =) Cos if we include freq above 120hz, it's a different story.

Offline kennyluck2000

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Re: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2019, 17:11 »
so which frequencies are you more referring to in HT bro? =) Cos if we include freq above 120hz, it's a different story.
I am more into bass freq. But if using the room correction software.. does it mean also going above 120hz..

Offline desray

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Re: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2019, 18:23 »

...if we have flat FR, I can still get the bass to sound & feel well "enough" thru increasing the sub's volume to match the dialogue volume. But, but, the problem about smaller listening rooms like in SG compared to Ang Mo country is that - the lower freq bass tend to sound softer to the ears than higher freq bass at the same measured SPL.

So more often that not, if i want 20hz to sound as loud to the ears Vs 90hz & feel the rumble, without a house curve, I need to bump up the sub(s)' volume. But this will mean that my mid bass will end up being over bloated because my mid bass will sound much louder to the ears. Causing the entire sound to be boomy.

So a house curve is very impt for me, within the 0-100hz region, to make lower bass frequencies sound equally balanced to my ears Vs higher bass freq  :) 

Lastly, agreed with bros here that horizontal flat FR is probably nicer for music.

20Hz region is not something you "hear" but "feel" but the SPL reading will be on the same reading with the rest of the frequency range. Of course, increasing the subwoofer gain will not work. That's why you need PEQ to work wonders for that range and that requires some level of technical know-how and various trial and error to get a good blend for both music and movie. I agreed on a slight bump in that sub-bass region will definitely give you that "shiok" feel but like you say, you are sacrificing other things you aptly described.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2019, 18:26 by desray »

Offline ronildoq

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Re: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2019, 08:33 »
I am more into bass freq. But if using the room correction software.. does it mean also going above 120hz..

Depending on the type of room correction software you use, some allow for correction below Schroeder frequency, some will be all the way up to 20khz . Some do a good job correcting frequencies below 100hz , some not

But for bass I think the minidsp 2x4hd is very good, other than the ability to set delays, do Bass EQ, set the individual gain, check for input signal clipping, set for compression, filters,invert polarity, high pass Low pass etc, many things u can do , very suitable for subwoofer EQ. Doesn’t cost a lot, USD205 and we have a local distributor here


Offline sevenz

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Re: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #19 on: October 07, 2019, 08:45 »
20Hz region is not something you "hear" but "feel" but the SPL reading will be on the same reading with the rest of the frequency range.

Are u referring to the region below 20hz for this? :)

If I didn't rem wrongly, for 20hz alone (to determine house curve), if u use rew to pass a 20hz test tone thru the sub channel, u can still hear quite audible tone.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2019, 08:59 by sevenz »

Offline desray

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Re: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2019, 09:01 »
Are u referring to region below 20hz for this?

If I didn't rem wrongly, for 20hz alone, if u use rew to pass a 20hz test tone thru the sub channel, u can still hear the audible tone. :)

Yes, I’m referring to < 20hz. LoL

Yes, 20hz - 20Khz is the range where humans can hear those test tones.


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Offline kennyluck2000

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Re: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #21 on: October 07, 2019, 09:26 »
Depending on the type of room correction software you use, some allow for correction below Schroeder frequency, some will be all the way up to 20khz . Some do a good job correcting frequencies below 100hz , some not

But for bass I think the minidsp 2x4hd is very good, other than the ability to set delays, do Bass EQ, set the individual gain, check for input signal clipping, set for compression, filters,invert polarity, high pass Low pass etc, many things u can do , very suitable for subwoofer EQ. Doesn’t cost a lot, USD205 and we have a local distributor here


Agree minidsp 2x4hd is very good for bass EQ.  :)
Just need to download software to your CPU and connect to the minidsp. A lot of tweaking we can do... ;) ;) ;)
« Last Edit: October 07, 2019, 09:32 by kennyluck2000 »

Offline sevenz

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Re: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #22 on: October 07, 2019, 11:18 »
Yes, I’m referring to < 20hz. LoL

Yes, 20hz - 20Khz is the range where humans can hear those test tones.


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Oki ;)

Offline desray

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Re: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #23 on: October 07, 2019, 12:21 »
Oki ;)

But beyond the that, that’s where we need the mic to help us since we are unable to “hear”. We may hear “softer” but the SPL should “ideally” have the same level across the board. But we all know there are dips and peaks due to the (standing waves) interacting with the room modes but that’s another topic.



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Offline desray

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Re: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #24 on: October 07, 2019, 12:54 »
I can confidently say that bass is almost always the culprit which either “make or break” the HT experience. Ability to take control and make adjustments be it using technical means like miniDSP and/or moving the subwoofers around to rein in the “beast” is the most critical.


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Offline rayleh

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Offline kennyluck2000

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Offline ronildoq

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Re: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #27 on: October 07, 2019, 13:36 »
Agree minidsp 2x4hd is very good for bass EQ.  :)
Just need to download software to your CPU and connect to the minidsp. A lot of tweaking we can do... ;) ;) ;)

Have u dived into Bass EQ? If you haven’t, then u can check out Ngsk room! If he is free, Lol . A fully time aligned system, very very good 7.3 system. His room not with flat response, Low frequency rising curve , sounds fantastic, at least to me, (lol cos I EQ for him, sure la say fantastic ) hahahahaha

Jokes aside, are u looking at tweaking something or adding some room Eq software etc? Out of curiosity, what prompted the question on a flat response?

Offline ronildoq

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Re: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #28 on: October 07, 2019, 13:40 »
Yes, I’m referring to < 20hz. LoL

Yes, 20hz - 20Khz is the range where humans can hear those test tones.


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Now my hearing is only up to 16khz, beyond that I can’t hear anything .

Offline rayleh

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Re: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #29 on: October 07, 2019, 13:51 »
Now my hearing is only up to 16khz, beyond that I can’t hear anything .

That means you are still young.

Offline desray

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Re: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #30 on: October 07, 2019, 14:06 »
That means you are still young.

Yeah as age catches up. Higher frequency will be a thing of the past. This is the reason why Atmos enabled speakers which have a certain high pass filter guideline requirement set forth by Dolby which utilise higher frequency to “fool” our brains and ears to perceive “height” channels work for some but for everyone.



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Online wizardofoz

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Re: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #31 on: October 07, 2019, 14:09 »
Flat doesn't = good...nothing is ever flat anyway

use EQ to find what sounds good to you on your setup in your room...any other room or setup will be different.

My hearing drops off after 8KHz
I have a pile of stuff that pushes out squiggly waveforms from smaller squiggly waveforms that sometimes come from 1's and 0's.
It's wonderful to behold as long as you don't let the magic smoke out.

Life is short! Enjoy the music while it plays, when it stops, there might be a chair for you...or  maybe not.

Offline kennyluck2000

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Re: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #32 on: October 07, 2019, 14:49 »
Have u dived into Bass EQ? If you haven’t, then u can check out Ngsk room! If he is free, Lol . A fully time aligned system, very very good 7.3 system. His room not with flat response, Low frequency rising curve , sounds fantastic, at least to me, (lol cos I EQ for him, sure la say fantastic ) hahahahaha

Jokes aside, are u looking at tweaking something or adding some room Eq software etc? Out of curiosity, what prompted the question on a flat response?

No Bryan I haven't go into bass eq. Neither do I apply the room correction software.
I still at my 5.1 era... :P
I just want to bring up this topic so everyone can share their thoughts...
NGSK room is sure soild one... 8)
Ok will visit him.... :)
I am not worry about flat response.. I already achieve my preference sound for both movie and music concert.
Bass is good soild from 80hz to 18hz down 2db to15hz and roll off from there...
Waiting for my 2 diy 18" to enhance my bass from 20hz and below... ;)
Most importantly we enjoy what we have now....  8)
« Last Edit: October 07, 2019, 14:55 by kennyluck2000 »

Offline ronildoq

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Re: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #33 on: October 07, 2019, 18:08 »
No Bryan I haven't go into bass eq. Neither do I apply the room correction software.
I still at my 5.1 era... :P
I just want to bring up this topic so everyone can share their thoughts...
NGSK room is sure soild one... 8)
Ok will visit him.... :)
I am not worry about flat response.. I already achieve my preference sound for both movie and music concert.
Bass is good soild from 80hz to 18hz down 2db to15hz and roll off from there...
Waiting for my 2 diy 18" to enhance my bass from 20hz and below... ;)
Most importantly we enjoy what we have now....  8)

Can’t wait ! Very excited for you, you must venture into bass EQ once your 18” subs come on board. It’s very very satisfying, another level all together .

Most importantly you have achieved your preferred sound, and enjoy your set up at the moment, that’s what matters end of the day :)

Offline ronildoq

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Re: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #34 on: October 07, 2019, 18:14 »
That means you are still young.

Lol no longer young.... up to which frequency you are able to hear ? Have you tested ?

I didn’t test previously when I was younger, not until recently. So no benchmark

Offline rayleh

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Re: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #35 on: October 07, 2019, 18:16 »
Lol no longer young.... up to which frequency you are able to hear ? Have you tested ?

I didn’t test previously when I was younger, not until recently. So no benchmark

12kHz. I should be much older than you.



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Offline ronildoq

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Re: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #36 on: October 07, 2019, 18:23 »
Flat doesn't = good...nothing is ever flat anyway

use EQ to find what sounds good to you on your setup in your room...any other room or setup will be different.

My hearing drops off after 8KHz

I see, are you able to hear past 12khz ? I was actually testing for preference on the target curve, I prefer to shelf the frequencies >8khz downwards by 1.5db. I find it too bright with a flat target straight to 20khz, especially the 10khz section when blades and bullets fly, that piercing sound ....

Hmm, good to know

Offline rayleh

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Re: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #37 on: October 07, 2019, 18:51 »
I see, are you able to hear past 12khz ? I was actually testing for preference on the target curve, I prefer to shelf the frequencies >8khz downwards by 1.5db. I find it too bright with a flat target straight to 20khz, especially the 10khz section when blades and bullets fly, that piercing sound ....

Hmm, good to know

Can't hear beyond that. I EQ till 500kHz so the sound is not so piercing. Will need to dig deeper but the curves in the Audy App just give you a general idea so quite impossible to fine-tune into the details. Need an AVR with Dirac Live.

Offline ronildoq

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Re: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #38 on: October 07, 2019, 19:20 »
Can't hear beyond that. I EQ till 500kHz so the sound is not so piercing. Will need to dig deeper but the curves in the Audy App just give you a general idea so quite impossible to fine-tune into the details. Need an AVR with Dirac Live.

500hz I suppose. So you go with the Schroeder frequency, leave the speakers to play back at their natural response in the room. So you are in The Schroeder camp

Do you do this for music and HT ? Both on similar profiles ?

Offline rayleh

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Re: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #39 on: October 07, 2019, 19:27 »
500hz I suppose. So you go with the Schroeder frequency, leave the speakers to play back at their natural response in the room. So you are in The Schroeder camp

Do you do this for music and HT ? Both on similar profiles ?

Yes 500Hz. 😆 Rarely listen to music so I use the same profiles for both. Kids and wife concur that it sounds better with Schroeder Frequency.

Offline kennyluck2000

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Re: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #40 on: October 07, 2019, 19:36 »
Can’t wait ! Very excited for you, you must venture into bass EQ once your 18” subs come on board. It’s very very satisfying, another level all together .

Most importantly you have achieved your preferred sound, and enjoy your set up at the moment, that’s what matters end of the day :)

Yes once 18" in will include the minidsp. ;)

Offline ronildoq

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Re: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #41 on: October 08, 2019, 08:37 »
Yes 500Hz. 😆 Rarely listen to music so I use the same profiles for both. Kids and wife concur that it sounds better with Schroeder Frequency.

Very good! U know what u want! That’s what matters, it’s also good you have your Mrs and kids to confirm, 2nd opinions are always welcome . I have the same experience, I’ve played with so much of EQ stuff that even my Mrs can tell and pick up resonances in the room, whether it’s boomy, too much gain, etc  lol . She will tell me which one nicer which not so nice. Similar to you, she is my second pair of ears , hahahaha .

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Re: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #42 on: October 08, 2019, 08:49 »
Yes once 18" in will include the minidsp. ;)

Looking forward to check out the diy 18”s, understand that it will be the um18 Drivers, what amplifiers to drive these two beast ? And if DSPs available with the amp?

So just handling deep bass with a Low pass filter ?

Have fun in your new journey! Integration for different model subs can be challenging. The subwoofer integration in my journey, is hands down the most difficult and complicated piece of puzzle in HT. It’s also crucial in HT to enjoy those LFE

Have fun bro, no pain no gain !

Offline kennyluck2000

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Re: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #43 on: October 08, 2019, 14:05 »
Looking forward to check out the diy 18”s, understand that it will be the um18 Drivers, what amplifiers to drive these two beast ? And if DSPs available with the amp?

So just handling deep bass with a Low pass filter ?

Have fun in your new journey! Integration for different model subs can be challenging. The subwoofer integration in my journey, is hands down the most difficult and complicated piece of puzzle in HT. It’s also crucial in HT to enjoy those LFE

Have fun bro, no pain no gain !

Byran the diy Dayton UM-18-22 is with Peter. It pair with the Behringer NX3000d DSP amp. You can check out with Peter.
I am ordering another 2pcs Stereo Integrity HST-18 MK II to test pairing with Minidsp and Behringer amp.

Ideally the 18" basically only handling the low pass at round 20-25hz depend on how the bass will integrate with the rest of the sub...and roll off at around 10hz or even earlier...everything need to test out first... ;)
« Last Edit: October 08, 2019, 16:46 by kennyluck2000 »

Online wechnivag

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Re: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #44 on: October 08, 2019, 20:03 »
If I may share my findings regarding TS question on flat graph and how it sounds.

Many who know me know I depend heavily on measurements to fine tune the tonal balance of my system. This is even more important for a full diy active setup where is no baseline voicing or tonal balance like a commercial speaker.

The challenge is drawing a correlation between the measurements, and what you actually hear as a good tonal balance. Here's what I found.

1.A flat curve from about 200hz to 20khz (measured nearfield 0.5m)is what I start as a baseline when I build the active crossover . Typically, this sounds a bit bright, and very slightly downward 1-2db slope from 1-2khz to 20khz is more balanced. This is related to the (harman) X curve but is actually due to air loss and room dissipation of higher frequency in larger rooms. As a result, the final balance that sounds 'right' is dependent on both room size as well as relative liveliness of the room furnishing. Not to mention personal preferences.

2. For the upper bass and low mids, next I dial in the BSC, baffle step compensation. For commercial speakers this is already part of the crossover, and is the reason why some speakers need more distance from walls to avoid sounding boomy and thick.
For diy, in typical rooms, a 3-4db low shelf at ~300hz, Q=0.6-0.7 is a good starting point. Due to the room, effects, this is difficult to measure, typically I adjust by ear with some choice test tracks that I'm familiar with.

3. Finally the low bass. Maybe a slight 3-5db shelf from 100hz to 50hz, then flat to the system rolloff. This is measured at MLP and this is when I EQ cut the room modal peaks as part of the response shaping.

With the above, I have tried active combinations of many different woofer, mid and tweeter, and come up with a system that actually sounds more similar than different. Tonal balance is similar based on the above steps , with remaining subjective differences in sound due to the relative directivity of the system (eg dome tweeter vs horn vs ribbon ), and diffraction nasties etc.

I see this as science supporting art. At the end of the day, it's about what sounds good, and getting there systematically instead of trial and error.

Cheers!

PS : everytime I do the above process with a new active speaker setup, I laugh at myself, because I'm literally an 'audiophile' who uses high quality music to listen to my system..

Here's some pics of my latest build.

Sent from my X9009 using Tapatalk


Offline desray

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Re: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #45 on: October 08, 2019, 20:09 »
I think sometimes we just need to "really" sit down and get to enjoy our fruits of labor. Striving to achieve perfection is neigh impossible...our home is not an anechoic chamber but with off shapes and different furnishings etc...but we can do is to do our best to optimise the HT experience using whatever tools, skill sets and knowledge we have.

Offline kennyluck2000

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Re: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #46 on: October 09, 2019, 01:49 »
If I may share my findings regarding TS question on flat graph and how it sounds.

Many who know me know I depend heavily on measurements to fine tune the tonal balance of my system. This is even more important for a full diy active setup where is no baseline voicing or tonal balance like a commercial speaker.

The challenge is drawing a correlation between the measurements, and what you actually hear as a good tonal balance. Here's what I found.

1.A flat curve from about 200hz to 20khz (measured nearfield 0.5m)is what I start as a baseline when I build the active crossover . Typically, this sounds a bit bright, and very slightly downward 1-2db slope from 1-2khz to 20khz is more balanced. This is related to the (harman) X curve but is actually due to air loss and room dissipation of higher frequency in larger rooms. As a result, the final balance that sounds 'right' is dependent on both room size as well as relative liveliness of the room furnishing. Not to mention personal preferences.

2. For the upper bass and low mids, next I dial in the BSC, baffle step compensation. For commercial speakers this is already part of the crossover, and is the reason why some speakers need more distance from walls to avoid sounding boomy and thick.
For diy, in typical rooms, a 3-4db low shelf at ~300hz, Q=0.6-0.7 is a good starting point. Due to the room, effects, this is difficult to measure, typically I adjust by ear with some choice test tracks that I'm familiar with.

3. Finally the low bass. Maybe a slight 3-5db shelf from 100hz to 50hz, then flat to the system rolloff. This is measured at MLP and this is when I EQ cut the room modal peaks as part of the response shaping.

With the above, I have tried active combinations of many different woofer, mid and tweeter, and come up with a system that actually sounds more similar than different. Tonal balance is similar based on the above steps , with remaining subjective differences in sound due to the relative directivity of the system (eg dome tweeter vs horn vs ribbon ), and diffraction nasties etc.

I see this as science supporting art. At the end of the day, it's about what sounds good, and getting there systematically instead of trial and error.

Cheers!

PS : everytime I do the above process with a new active speaker setup, I laugh at myself, because I'm literally an 'audiophile' who uses high quality music to listen to my system..

Here's some pics of my latest build.

Sent from my X9009 using Tapatalk



Thanks wechnivag for sharing your knowledges and experiances  8) cool