Author Topic: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound  (Read 1585 times)

Offline kennyluck2000

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Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« on: October 06, 2019, 02:31 »
I had been listened to many forum member sound system, especially those who really depend on nice looking graph to sound good...
Are you the one who need nice looking graph to sound best....
Are we tweaking our system to sound the way we really want.... if yes did your system sound fantastic after you achieve good flat graph...
Is your system sound good for both movie and music concert?
Do share your thoughts?

Offline Jag

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Re: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2019, 04:37 »
1) Nice graphs DO NOT mean nice sound.[/u]

However, measurements help me to quantifiably describe CHANGES to the sound I'm hearing as much as possible. This will help me graphically visualize what changes in frequency response I'm hearing in ULF, bass, midrange and treble compares like.

Measurements are just merely a visual way to describe what my ear is hearing. No amount of graphs will fully describe what "good" sounds like. However, graphs are a better way to describe sonic characteristics than poetically colourful vocabulary like boomy, lacking, sharp, chesty, boxy, honky, surreal.....etc

The cool things about measurements will help me replicate sounds from one setup to another relatively closely time and time again.


2) While I advocate measurements, I AM NOT AN ADVOCATE for flat graphs.[/u]

Flat sound is lifeless and sounds pathetic. Bass needs a house curve to sound shiok, and my tweaks are only for subwoofer channels; leave the mains to sound how the speakers are voiced by the manufacturer
 
Having heard so many sound system in HT, pro-audio, stage sounds, theater sounds, I have come to the conclusion that no single system cannot sound great for both movie and music. It will be acceptably good for both, but not great for both.


3) But guess what? Speaker designers, acousticians, sound engineers, professional installers all use measurements..... but all of them will know a horizontally flat graph will sound like shyte and to use measurement to correlate to what their ears hear for their professional objective.


4) Being able to replicate how flat graph sounds is the first waypoint for reference. After replicating reference, tweak for preference.
This is why Audyssey finally caved in to demands for user adjustable house curve when they were previously stubborn against it. Even THX does have its own ideas on flat frequency response. ...... There are 1001+++ articles that advocate that audio reproduction should have a house curve free from wild up-down swings throughout the entire frequency response. Slopes are ok, but violent up-down swings not ok.

5) In my opinion, audio is just a science to replicate art. Execute the technical tweaks to enhance appreciation of art. The audio science behind it is just a means to the end(art appreciation)..... not the reverse. 

Just my 2 cts.
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Offline desray

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Re: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2019, 09:36 »
1) Nice graphs DO NOT mean nice sound.

However, measurements help me to quantifiably describe CHANGES to the sound I'm hearing as much as possible. This will help me graphically visualize what changes in frequency response I'm hearing in ULF, bass, midrange and treble compares like.

Measurements are just merely a visual way to describe what my ear is hearing. No amount of graphs will fully describe what "good" sounds like. However, graphs are a better way to describe sonic characteristics than poetically colourful vocabulary like boomy, lacking, sharp, chesty, boxy, honky, surreal.....etc

The cool things about measurements will help me replicate sounds from one setup to another relatively closely time and time again.


2) While I advocate measurements, I AM NOT AN ADVOCATE for flat graphs.

Bass needs a house curve to sound shiok, and my tweaks are only for subwoofer channels; leave the mains to sound how the speakers are voiced by the manufacturer
 
Having heard so many sound system in HT, pro-audio, stage sounds, theater sounds, I have come to the conclusion that no single system cannot sound great for both movie and music. It will be acceptably good for both, but not great for both.

3) But guess what? Speaker designers, acousticians, sound engineers, professional installers all use measurements..... but all of them will know a horizontally flat graph will sound like shyte and to use measurement to correlate to what their ears hear for their professional objective.

4) Being able to replicate how flat graph sounds is the first waypoint for reference. After replicating reference, tweak for preference.
This is why Audyssey finally caved in to demands for user adjustable house curve when they were previously stubborn against it. Even THX does have its own ideas on flat frequency response. ...... There are 1001+++ articles that advocate that audio reproduction should have a house curve free from wild up-down swings throughout the entire frequency response. Slopes are ok, but violent up-down swings not ok.

5) In my opinion, audio is just a science to replicate art. Execute the technical tweaks to enhance appreciation of art. The audio science behind it is just a means to the end(art appreciation)..... not the reverse. 

Just my 2 cts.

Whao Jag...what are you doing at 4.30am?! Insomnia? LoL...

Agreed with all your points except for the part that "flat" response for subwoofers sounded like "crap" (I think it is a bit "harsh". After all, sound is "subjective", what sounds good to you does not necessarily suit another person's taste but we already knew that) but you did mention about tweaks for preference and that I cannot agree more with you. Flat subwoofer response sounded awesome for music based on my experience and I'm not an audiophile.

The reason why I advocate for "reference" (flat response curve) for "majority" of the members (inlcuding noobies and even old birds) is exactly the same reason you brought up - i.e. "no single system cannot sound great for both movie and music. It will be acceptably good for both, but not great for both". I do enjoy listening to some great music when I'm working on some project ideas...and I want a reasonably good sounding system when I need to fire up some Apple Music or Spotify tracks for listening pleasure to keep me going. Of course, that is not to say that I don't enjoy that rumble and "pants-flipping" ULF when watching a movie like Godzilla King of Monsters but UNLESS majority of the members are like you and a few others who have the technical know-how to play with the "affected frequency range" to get the best of both worlds; I will advise them to stick with a flat response curve which IMHO does both movie and music "acceptably" well w/o too much hassle.

My 2.5 cents...
« Last Edit: October 06, 2019, 09:42 by desray »

Offline desray

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Re: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2019, 09:51 »
I had been listened to many forum member sound system, especially those who really depend on nice looking graph to sound good...
Are you the one who need nice looking graph to sound best....
Are we tweaking our system to sound the way we really want.... if yes did your system sound fantastic after you achieve good flat graph...
Is your system sound good for both movie and music concert?
Do share your thoughts?

Just curious Kenny, are you talking about the HT speaker systems including/excluding the subwoofer response or are you asking primarily on the subwoofers response curve? If its the latter, then this topic is more appropriate in the Planet Bass.

BTW to answer your subject matter, "Do nice flat graph=Good Sound"...and my answer is "Yes" for both Movie and Music if done right. But if you are referring to "Great" sound that performs equally well for both music as well as movie, then we are probably going into the "preference" territory in which you may see some compromise and trade-offs depending on what you desire. There is a reason why purist have 2 separate systems in their HT den...but these days, many people decides to settle for "good" systems that performs resonably well for both music and movie. Let's face it, in Singapore, unless you lived in a landed property, commoners like me and many bros here don't have the luxury of having 2 setups in an already "small room". At the end of the day, it is your system, your choice :)
 
« Last Edit: October 06, 2019, 10:02 by desray »

Offline kennyluck2000

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Re: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2019, 10:35 »
Morning Jag and Desray.
Thanks for sharing your's valuable thoughts ;)

Offline ronildoq

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Re: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2019, 10:40 »
For me, it’s just one word to sum it up be it bass, midrange , treble anything...

TIMING

that’s all that matters to me for good sound

A perceived Flat response in a room with good timing is the best

If I have to choose between a flat response vs good timing response, id go for the latter anytime. All Drivers move in out start stop same time, including tweeters timing, damn solid


Offline kennyluck2000

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Re: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2019, 10:44 »
Thanks Byran for sharing your thoughts.

Offline Boxerfan88

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Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2019, 11:23 »
Are you the one who need nice looking graph to sound best....

Nope. My REW graph is quite ugly but it still sound so good.

Quote
Is your system sound good for both movie and music concert?
Do share your thoughts?

Yes, mine to me sounds very good for both HT & Stereo.

For Stereo, strangely my preference is minimum phase filter on the DAC...



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« Last Edit: October 06, 2019, 11:45 by Boxerfan88 »
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Offline kennyluck2000

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Re: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2019, 11:42 »
Thanks Boxerfan88 for sharing your different thoughts

Offline kenshin07

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Re: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2019, 13:18 »
I had a chance of able to achieve nice graph but i find the flat graph sound boring to me. In the end use ear to tune to my liking. Using rew as a reference.
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Online Tiktokape

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Re: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2019, 13:32 »
If one can do up the room/hall and achieve a flat graph after acoustic treatment yet WAF, that’s definitely the ideal situation for all HTpile. Once that has been achieved, one has the reference point to tweak further to one’s preference. Even a set of entry system will also sound good from start.

Unless one seek the studio sounding that is accurate; however it may not appeal to those who seek musically.


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Online rayleh

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Re: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2019, 14:03 »
I was pursing a flat FR for my subs and was able to achieve it with the help of DSP. However, I was advised not to focus too much on FR and also be mindful about timing, decay. Also, a hip use curve is essential IMO.

Offline kennyluck2000

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Re: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2019, 14:11 »
Thanks kenshin07, Tiktokape and reyleh for sharing...
 ;)

Offline sevenz

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Re: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2019, 16:08 »
Kenny - are u referring more to the subs FR/lower freq below 120hz in HT? I assume so :)

For me, 2 things come to mind.

1) for lower freq below 120hz, a straight line with room modal peaks all cut well and minimising wide range dips (assuming: dips are smoothened thru multiple subs & not boosted + subs are phase aligned), and low distortion, is more impt to me than a horizontally flat FR. And, good sound is to me also = minimizing audible vibrations in the house, where possible, which cutting peaks helps to a good extent.

2) if we have flat FR, I can still get the bass to sound & feel well "enough" thru increasing the sub's volume to match the dialogue volume. But, but, the problem about smaller listening rooms like in SG compared to Ang Mo country is that - the lower freq bass tend to sound softer to the ears than higher freq bass at the same measured SPL.

So more often that not, if i want 20hz to sound as loud to the ears Vs 90hz & feel the rumble, without a house curve, I need to bump up the sub(s)' volume. But this will mean that my mid bass will end up being over bloated because my mid bass will sound much louder to the ears. Causing the entire sound to be boomy.

So a house curve is very impt for me, within the 0-100hz region, to make lower bass frequencies sound equally balanced to my ears Vs higher bass freq  :) 

Lastly, agreed with bros here that horizontal flat FR is probably nicer for music.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2019, 16:56 by sevenz »

Offline kennyluck2000

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Re: Do nice flat graph=Good Sound
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2019, 16:27 »
Thanks Sevenz for sharing your thoughts too...  :)