Author Topic: Mid-range AVR with Power Amp or High-range AVR  (Read 1514 times)

Offline rayleh

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Mid-range AVR with Power Amp or High-range AVR
« on: July 18, 2019, 13:52 »
Hi,

Observing that a lot of bros here have gone from mainstream AVR to Storm Audio, Anthem etc. Wonder if I can only run a 5.2.2 setup, should I just go for a mid-range AVR and add separate power AMP or should I just bite the bullet and go for high-range AVR? Price should be similar for both options.

Offline YANG

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Re: Mid-range AVR with Power Amp or High-range AVR
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2019, 14:17 »
One word in general... UPGRADABILITY.
When we talk about AVR, we cannot shun away from the topic of Japanese engineering vs AngMoh engineering.
Japanese engineering is almost... every chucked into a case and fixed. Although in some models, there are preouts for buyers/users/consumers to fix/pair up with external power-amps for UPGRADABLE juice outputs.
AngMoh engineering is about flexibility. They claim* that their hardware internals can have modular upgrades and future proof, even if the power output side is fixed on some models...
(*ROTEL, ANTHEM, ARCAM, NAD... what else? AMERICAN like HARMAN...is easternized lo...)

Offline desray

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Re: Mid-range AVR with Power Amp or High-range AVR
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2019, 14:35 »
Hi,

Observing that a lot of bros here have gone from mainstream AVR to Storm Audio, Anthem etc. Wonder if I can only run a 5.2.2 setup, should I just go for a mid-range AVR and add separate power AMP or should I just bite the bullet and go for high-range AVR? Price should be similar for both options.

Very good discussion topic you brought up.

Offline sdds

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Re: Mid-range AVR with Power Amp or High-range AVR
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2019, 14:41 »
Just my 2 cent of inputs might miss out other brands , 

Mid range :

Emotiva , Nad , Audiocontrol , Acram , Anthem ,Lexicon

Hi end : 

Lyngdorf , Storm , Bryston , Trinnov , Acrus , Datasat ,JBL
systhnesis.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2019, 16:34 by sdds »

Offline rayleh

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Re: Mid-range AVR with Power Amp or High-range AVR
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2019, 15:40 »
Of course, the type of room eq comes into the equation too. However, let say we compare between Denon X4500 with external power amp to drive at least LCR or just a X8500 will sound better? At least both AVR are using the same room eq.

Offline Tiktokape

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Re: Mid-range AVR with Power Amp or High-range AVR
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2019, 16:24 »
Well, my personal opinion is to avoid overdoing it. Using mine as example, my HT speakers & subwoofer are roughly $7k for 5.1.4, I set a budget of not more than 50% for AVR (9 channels) or AVR & stereo amp (7 + 2 channels) when I was sourcing for it. In my case, I ended up with NAD AVR for Dirac EQ. One can spend heavily on the AVR or AVP but not really ripping the ultimate benefits if the speakers are not at high level. It is the same application over one is considering over a budget and usual case-study is to pin more budgets towards speakers.

Of cause, some of us will upgrade over the period but one may do so when it happens, learn the HT curve and not just chase for nothing. What is critical over with AVR plus external amp is if one decided to upgrade the speakers (hard to drive), essentially the key feature is pre-out from AVR.

Offline khlim_77

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Re: Mid-range AVR with Power Amp or High-range AVR
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2019, 17:51 »
to my view point , no matter flagship or mid end , i will still add power amp .
adding power amp is a must for home theater player

Offline ronildoq

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Re: Mid-range AVR with Power Amp or High-range AVR
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2019, 17:59 »
Of course, the type of room eq comes into the equation too. However, let say we compare between Denon X4500 with external power amp to drive at least LCR or just a X8500 will sound better? At least both AVR are using the same room eq.

Given a choice, I’d get the 4500 to pair with external amplification

Offline Pismo Mac

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Re: Mid-range AVR with Power Amp or High-range AVR
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2019, 22:21 »
Really depends on your speakers. If your speakers are hard to drive, you will need an external power amp.   Also depends on how many speakers you have. Most mid-end AVRs won’t be able to drive all bookshelf speakers without an external power amp.

If your setup is doubling up as for hi-fi in addition to home theatre, then you will likely need an external power amp.

You can probably ask to demo the same set of speakers (try at least 5.1) with and without power amp and see if you can hear the difference.


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Offline rayleh

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Re: Mid-range AVR with Power Amp or High-range AVR
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2019, 08:02 »
I am using Def Tech UIW series speakers and they are easy to drive. I don’t listen loud too and my living room isn’t humongous. Getting a AVR with better room eq may be a better upgrading choice for me.

Offline winwinc81

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Re: Mid-range AVR with Power Amp or High-range AVR
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2019, 08:25 »
Speaker sensitivity plays a part too, higher sensitivity speakers will not need to turn up vol too high, hence less load on the power amp or AVR. Correct me if I'm wrong, if using high power amp, less electrical load on AVP as well I guess. More headroom always better.

Offline desray

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Re: Mid-range AVR with Power Amp or High-range AVR
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2019, 09:46 »
For me, after using Jap brand AVR (Denon for the most part) as well as the Ang Moh brand (Anthem from Canada), I must say the Room EQ (calibration s/w) plays an important role IF and I emphasized "IF" your listening room ain't ideal...meaning poor speaker and less than ideal subwoofer placements (which imo is the KEY to great home theatre sound)...however if you adhere to good speaker placement (foundational groundwork is already very strong), then even Yamaha's YPAO or Onkyo AccuEQ which is the "least favored" amongst the more conventional integrated RoomEQ calibration s/w, can also work wonders... :)

So the BIGGEST determinant on whether to get a midrange AVR coupled with power amps OR a flagship AVR that does everything depends on your listening environment. That's just my own opinion.

Offline sevenz

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Re: Mid-range AVR with Power Amp or High-range AVR
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2019, 12:33 »
Really depends on your speakers. If your speakers are hard to drive, you will need an external power amp.   

+1 on this. This will b a big determining factor for me for ext amp. For simpler smaller speakers, a sole flagship avr would be my choice. Previously, I was on power hungry speakers, so adding power amp made a day n night difference. But recently,  I switched to simpler setup using KEF q series/eggs, and using a flagship avr alone gave quite impressive sq.

I also observed that using a flagship series avr with ext amplification gave better sound steering & ambience as compared to using a mid range avr as the processor (x4000 in my case Vs 4520 / sr7011), perhaps due to higher quality audio components. Not sure if any other bros have similar observations
« Last Edit: July 19, 2019, 15:16 by sevenz »

Offline sdds

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Re: Mid-range AVR with Power Amp or High-range AVR
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2019, 13:36 »
Beside power , DAC in the processor or receivers play a big part in sound . That sets the price apart from mid range and hi end .

Offline rayleh

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Re: Mid-range AVR with Power Amp or High-range AVR
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2019, 14:59 »
Beside power , DAC in the processor or receivers play a big part in sound . That sets the price apart from mid range and hi end .

It may be time to look for you. :)

Offline sdds

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Re: Mid-range AVR with Power Amp or High-range AVR
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2019, 15:05 »
Anytime and most welcome  ;D

Offline YANG

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Re: Mid-range AVR with Power Amp or High-range AVR
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2019, 16:43 »
...I also observed that using a flagship series avr with ext amplification gave better sound steering & ambience as compared to using a mid range avr as the processor (x4000 in my case Vs 4520 / sr7011), perhaps due to higher quality audio components. Not sure if any other bros have similar observations
I see differently. When brands got acquired into a group, it will not be "cost effective" to produce identical spec'ed products with different badge then pushed to one market to loggerhead against one another with different sales marketing. However, it will be "sales effective" if different brands are pushed into different regions with different sales marketing targeting different consumer group.

This is why you see small "population" of Pioneer in the market ever since ONKYO bought over, while in U.S. or U.K. Pioneer is more "populated" than Onkyo.

Back to Marantz...

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/lnOdOpBFDbU&fs=1" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/lnOdOpBFDbU&fs=1</a>
2018 Marantz lineup introduction

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2019 Marantz lineup introduction
What's identical between Denon and Marantz? Besides physical aesthetic design?
Under the hood, any big difference between Denon 8500 and Marantz 8850?

Offline kenshin07

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Re: Mid-range AVR with Power Amp or High-range AVR
« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2019, 16:59 »
Go for the best amp within your budget. Adding addition power does not necessary WILL sound better. It just have better control to your listening experience. Of course YMMV. Getting a decent good external power amp does play an important role. All in all added in, including interconnect and power cord you can go for better avr.

I have heard both Lyndorgf and Stormaudio, there are in a diff league altogether. In my opinion no matter how simple your setup is pairing with a solid good amp still make a big diff. At the end you have to decide what budget you willing to pay.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2019, 17:20 by kenshin07 »
AVR: Denon AVC 8500
Power amp: Aragon 8008BB, Proceed 2/3
speaker: Front/Center/Surround/SurrBack:Dynaudio contour s1.4, dynaudio 210C | PSB imagine s surround | PSB Imagine mini | Atmos spk AG diva SE
Sub: starke dual sub36
EQ: Minidsp DDRC-24 dirca live
Player: Oppo 203
Cable: AFA Zeus II PC (SUB), ESP reference PC (pwr amp, AVR, Oppo 203), AFA Zeus II speaker cable, oyaide MTB 6 with AFA Zeus II PC

Offline desray

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Re: Mid-range AVR with Power Amp or High-range AVR
« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2019, 19:16 »
Go for the best amp within your budget. Adding addition power does not necessary WILL sound better. It just have better control to your listening experience. Of course YMMV. Getting a decent good external power amp does play an important role. All in all added in, including interconnect and power cord you can go for better avr.

I have heard both Lyndorgf and Stormaudio, there are in a diff league altogether. In my opinion no matter how simple your setup is pairing with a solid good amp still make a big diff. At the end you have to decide what budget you willing to pay.

Bro, which one is better or should I say what are the differences in SQ for both of these? Care to elaborate?

Offline Doggie Howser

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Re: Mid-range AVR with Power Amp or High-range AVR
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2019, 09:53 »
Having played with the new Anthems, I am going in a different way... I think I am going to offload all my disparate power amps in my current set up when they become obsolete.

An Anthem MRX1120 has got great internal power amps, I wouldn't bother with separates. Or if I did, it would be with identical power amps throughout. Even though I reckon my power amps for surrounds are better than the ones in the Anthem - they are outclassed by my front LR power amps (which I also use for stereo), so I never quite achieve the same level of cohesion as I do on the Anthem

My only concern is that the LS50 I had planned to use for LCR SR SL SBR SBL duties are a little hard to drive, so I may need to think Anthem with the Class G amps (which pair very well with the LS50)

End of Line - Derezzed

Offline reno77

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Re: Mid-range AVR with Power Amp or High-range AVR
« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2019, 10:25 »
Just my 2 cent of inputs might miss out other brands , 

Mid range :

Emotiva , Nad , Audiocontrol , Acram , Anthem ,Lexicon

Hi end : 

Lyngdorf , Storm , Bryston , Trinnov , Acrus , Datasat ,JBL
systhnesis.

The new focal Astral 16
https://www.focal.com/en/home-audio/high-fidelity-speakers/audio-video-processor-and-amplifier/astral-16

Edit: Ah, its a repackage of the Storm Audio I.ISP 3D.16.12 ELITE .
https://www.stormaudio.com/en/products/av-immersive-sound-receivers/7816-iisp-3d1612-elite.html
« Last Edit: July 20, 2019, 12:30 by reno77 »

Offline Tiktokape

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Re: Mid-range AVR with Power Amp or High-range AVR
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2019, 10:35 »
Precisely the case, I second that Doggie's LS50 as they are hard to drive hence they will need external amp. If do AVR, try to stick within the brand for coherency.

Aside, If one's speakers are not even hard to drive, may not be worth the additional output. No doubt one can argue that it does make a difference BUT it is matter of a total balance. If such is one's case, it should be pointed toward the route of AVP and external multi-channel amp. A standalone AVP will not be polluted by the transformer compared to AVR. That will results in a better quality sound.

Offline whitesox

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Re: Mid-range AVR with Power Amp or High-range AVR
« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2019, 11:12 »
Go for the best amp within your budget. Adding addition power does not necessary WILL sound better. It just have better control to your listening experience. Of course YMMV. Getting a decent good external power amp does play an important role. All in all added in, including interconnect and power cord you can go for better avr.


+1
If you have a good input source then.... you will have better output when you amplify it with a good external amplifier.
But you need extra space for this setup.

Since you use ext amplifier to drive all your speakers, why not go for AVP.
(this setup may burn your pocket bigger)
AVP has no build-in amplifier for all channels and yet more expensive than AVR..

 ;D
« Last Edit: July 20, 2019, 11:26 by whitesox »

Offline econav

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Re: Mid-range AVR with Power Amp or High-range AVR
« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2019, 15:48 »
amp are not all perfrom the same way on lower output power or at the highest clipping point what is their freq respone ? are they still linear under all output condition ? some are very sensitive to inductive load and some are not producing linear power on low resistance/capitance load, as we understand speaker imp for some can drop below 4 ohm or almost short at very high freq , all this will affect the linear power output a amp can reproduce. further then that the power supply on how fast they can recover/charge up to produce very consitent supply to the amp , all this change and affect the power output and the linear of the freq range it can reproduce .
to begain with .... many say is good and some even say is a must all spk to be same brand or range ! why ? was not it to get the same freq respone in the first place ? and if so should we also have all equal on it supply to the spk .... your take ......
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Offline kenshin07

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Re: Mid-range AVR with Power Amp or High-range AVR
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2019, 21:23 »
Bro, which one is better or should I say what are the differences in SQ for both of these? Care to elaborate?


Both are very good, to put it short. Lyndorf is more musical and neutral while storm audio give better slam and dynamic. On the room eq integrated both did a very good job as they focus more on time alignment. Lyndorf easier to use while dirac require some knowledge.

Personally i go for dirac as i have seen how good the software can do.
AVR: Denon AVC 8500
Power amp: Aragon 8008BB, Proceed 2/3
speaker: Front/Center/Surround/SurrBack:Dynaudio contour s1.4, dynaudio 210C | PSB imagine s surround | PSB Imagine mini | Atmos spk AG diva SE
Sub: starke dual sub36
EQ: Minidsp DDRC-24 dirca live
Player: Oppo 203
Cable: AFA Zeus II PC (SUB), ESP reference PC (pwr amp, AVR, Oppo 203), AFA Zeus II speaker cable, oyaide MTB 6 with AFA Zeus II PC

Offline kenshin07

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Re: Mid-range AVR with Power Amp or High-range AVR
« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2019, 21:25 »
+1
If you have a good input source then.... you will have better output when you amplify it with a good external amplifier.
But you need extra space for this setup.

Since you use ext amplifier to drive all your speakers, why not go for AVP.
(this setup may burn your pocket bigger)
AVP has no build-in amplifier for all channels and yet more expensive than AVR..

 ;D

Haha said is easier than action. Bo lui
AVR: Denon AVC 8500
Power amp: Aragon 8008BB, Proceed 2/3
speaker: Front/Center/Surround/SurrBack:Dynaudio contour s1.4, dynaudio 210C | PSB imagine s surround | PSB Imagine mini | Atmos spk AG diva SE
Sub: starke dual sub36
EQ: Minidsp DDRC-24 dirca live
Player: Oppo 203
Cable: AFA Zeus II PC (SUB), ESP reference PC (pwr amp, AVR, Oppo 203), AFA Zeus II speaker cable, oyaide MTB 6 with AFA Zeus II PC

Offline desray

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Re: Mid-range AVR with Power Amp or High-range AVR
« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2019, 21:29 »
Both are very good, to put it short. Lyndorf is more musical and neutral while storm audio give better slam and dynamic. On the room eq integrated both did a very good job as they focus more on time alignment. Lyndorf easier to use while dirac require some knowledge.

Personally i go for dirac as i have seen how good the software can do.

I see. So in crude reference, one is Onkyo and the other one is a Marantz.

I’m hoping to get my hands on a Dirac based AVR in the near future. We shall see, anything is possible.



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Offline kenshin07

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Re: Mid-range AVR with Power Amp or High-range AVR
« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2019, 21:37 »
I see. So in crude reference, one is Onkyo and the other one is a Marantz.

I’m hoping to get my hands on a Dirac based AVR in the near future. We shall see, anything is possible.



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Hmm, i take it more toward denon but at a much more refine sounding.

Yes you shd go try dirac very flexible
AVR: Denon AVC 8500
Power amp: Aragon 8008BB, Proceed 2/3
speaker: Front/Center/Surround/SurrBack:Dynaudio contour s1.4, dynaudio 210C | PSB imagine s surround | PSB Imagine mini | Atmos spk AG diva SE
Sub: starke dual sub36
EQ: Minidsp DDRC-24 dirca live
Player: Oppo 203
Cable: AFA Zeus II PC (SUB), ESP reference PC (pwr amp, AVR, Oppo 203), AFA Zeus II speaker cable, oyaide MTB 6 with AFA Zeus II PC

Offline Tiktokape

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Re: Mid-range AVR with Power Amp or High-range AVR
« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2019, 21:38 »
I see. So in crude reference, one is Onkyo and the other one is a Marantz.

I’m hoping to get my hands on a Dirac based AVR in the near future. We shall see, anything is possible.



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Since you sold Anthem, might as well buy Dirac based AVR lo. Who knows who is next to go? Dirac based AVR or Denon AVR?


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Offline desray

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Re: Mid-range AVR with Power Amp or High-range AVR
« Reply #29 on: July 21, 2019, 21:46 »
Since you sold Anthem, might as well buy Dirac based AVR lo. Who knows who is next to go? Dirac based AVR or Denon AVR?


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Hehe...we shall see.


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