Author Topic: Heads up - dimming issue for HDR videos  (Read 2245 times)

Offline sevenz

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Heads up - dimming issue for HDR videos
« on: April 18, 2019, 21:00 »
*updated with more findings

Fellow OLED/HDR capable display users, heads up. I just discovered this annoying issue when playing some HDR movies on my LG OLED TV. Just wondering if u saw any similar issue too.


Problem statement
I noticed sudden significant dimming of my OLED display in many typical "averagely lighted" scenes. E.g. when the actor is talking in a dim/ averagely lighted up room without much movement. I was shocked as the scenes weren't bright and it didn't have much speculiar highlights. In this case, I noticed it more prominently on these recent movies i watched:
1) Avengers Infinity War (by Tekno) - scene where Vision was talking to Wanda in a room, preventing her to go out.
2) Captain America Civil War (by Tekno) - many scenes, esp when there are lots of subtitles.

After some troubleshoot, the observation of the symptom is - whenever subtitles appeared, it caused the image to dim automatically. When the subtitles disappear (no speech), the exact same image/scene brightens back. But, when the subtitles are switched off, the picture doesn't suffer from this at all.

But it's not all movies. The issue seems to be more significant on certain HDR movies. Current observation is it's more prominent on those that are tone-remapped by tekno, mastered at 4000 nits.

On the normal HDR movies that were not from Tekno, I remember it was less obvious. I will continue to observe further on the other HDR movies.   

Possible cause:
After some research online, I was brought to attention LG has this in-built auto dimming on their OLEDs where international consumers have reported similar issues in certain conditions. 2 types:

1) Auto Brightness Limiter (ABL) -The online findings suggests that this could be causing it as the display tries to limit its brightness in certain conditions. It affects SDR picture too if the luminance exceeds certain nits. This seems like can't be turned off on the LG OLEDs :(

2) ASBL dimming - When display detects a still image played for a certain time, the picture will auto dim too. This potentially affects display calibration and must be careful during calibration to prevent display going into dimming. Luckily, this can be turned off via the service menu :)

More details here from avs forum:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-oled-technology-flat-panels-general/2440714-how-turn-off-asbl-lg-oled-tv-5.html#/topics/2440714?page=1

Owners of HDR-capable displays or OLEDs, do u all see similar dimming issue on your display on some HDR-mastered videos? And what display are u using?

How to test - just play a relatively static scene in a HDR-mastered movie where the person is talking and pausing his speech in a room and the camera focuses on the portrait of the person. Switch on subtitles. Observe what happens when the subtitles appear and disappear.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2019, 22:58 by sevenz »

Offline YANG

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Re: Heads up - dimming issue for HDR videos
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2019, 21:16 »
without engaging HDR,when watching non-HDR content like movies from DVD,I'll hv to brighten up to get some details from dark scenes。
however,some movies can benefit from HDR & some don't。that may dependent on the age of the movie when it was made。taking Last of the Mohicans vs Revenant vs the Patriot,the last 2 on non-HDR mastered DVD can benefit from post HDR process,but LotM cant。

Offline desray

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Re: Heads up - dimming issue for HDR videos
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2019, 22:32 »
Fellow OLED/HDR capable display users, heads up. I just discovered this annoying issue when playing HDR movies.

I recently started playing HDR movies (remapped by tekno) on my LG oled TV, and evaluating the HDR PQ.

I noticed sudden significant dimming of my OLED display in many typical "averagely lighted" scenes. E.g. when the actor is talking in a room without much movement. I was shocked as the scene wasn't bright and it didn't have much speculiar highlights

Did some investigation. I discovered that whenever the subtitles appeared, it caused the image to dim automatically. When the subtitles disappear (no speech), the exact same image/scene brightens back.

When subtitles are switched off, the picture doesn't suffer from this at all.

After some research, I was brought to attention LG has this in-built auto dimming on their OLEDs. 2 types.

1) Auto Brightness Limiter (ABL) -The online findings suggests that this could be causing it as display tries to limit its brightness in certain conditions. It affects SDR picture too if the luminance exceeds certain nits. This seems like cant be turned off on LG OLEDs :(

2) ASBL dimming - When display detects a still image played for a certain time, the picture will auto dim too. This potentially affects display calibration and must be careful during calibration to prevent display going into dimming. Luckily, this can be turned off via the service menu :)

More details here from avs forum:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-oled-technology-flat-panels-general/2440714-how-turn-off-asbl-lg-oled-tv-5.html#/topics/2440714?page=1

Owners of a HDR capable TVs or OLEDs, do u all see similar dimming issue on your display on HDR-mastered videos? And what display are u using?

How to test - just play a relatively static scene in a HDR-mastered movie where the person is talking in a room and the camera focuses on the portrait of the person. Switch on subtitles. Observe what happens when the subtitles appear and disappear.

Good sharing of your experience with bros here. :)

Offline rockzilla

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Re: Heads up - dimming issue for HDR videos
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2019, 22:51 »
*updated with more findings

Fellow OLED/HDR capable display users, heads up. I just discovered this annoying issue when playing some HDR movies on my LG OLED TV. Just wondering if u saw any similar issue too.

But it's not all movies. The issue seems to be more significant on certain HDR movies. Current observation is it's more prominent on those that are tone-remapped by tekno, mastered at 4000 nits.

Problem statement is - I noticed sudden significant dimming of my OLED display in many typical "averagely lighted" scenes. E.g. when the actor is talking in a dim/ averagely lighted up room without much movement. I was shocked as the scenes weren't bright and it didn't have much speculiar highlights. In this case, I noticed it more prominently on:
1) Avengers Infinity War (by Tekno) - scene where Vision was talking to Wanda in a room, preventing her to go out.
2) Captain America Civil War (by Tekno)

Did some investigation. I discovered that whenever the subtitles appeared, it caused the image to dim automatically. When the subtitles disappear (no speech), the exact same image/scene brightens back. But, when subtitles are switched off, the picture doesn't suffer from this at all.

It was less obvious on the normal HDR movies that were not re-tone-mapped.

After some research, I was brought to attention LG has this in-built auto dimming on their OLEDs. 2 types:

1) Auto Brightness Limiter (ABL) -The online findings suggests that this could be causing it as the display tries to limit its brightness in certain conditions. It affects SDR picture too if the luminance exceeds certain nits. This seems like can't be turned off on the LG OLEDs :(

2) ASBL dimming - When display detects a still image played for a certain time, the picture will auto dim too. This potentially affects display calibration and must be careful during calibration to prevent display going into dimming. Luckily, this can be turned off via the service menu :)

More details here from avs forum:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-oled-technology-flat-panels-general/2440714-how-turn-off-asbl-lg-oled-tv-5.html#/topics/2440714?page=1

Owners of a HDR capable TVs or OLEDs, do u all see similar dimming issue on your display on some HDR-mastered videos? And what display are u using?

How to test - just play a relatively static scene in a HDR-mastered movie where the person is talking and pausing his speech in a room and the camera focuses on the portrait of the person. Switch on subtitles. Observe what happens when the subtitles appear and disappear.

Had this issue as well, so far i had to turn off the subtitle to overcome it.

Offline sevenz

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Re: Heads up - dimming issue for HDR videos
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2019, 22:55 »
Had this issue as well, so far i had to turn off the subtitle to overcome it.

Thanks for the inputs rockzilla! Possible to share which display u are using?

Offline ronildoq

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Re: Heads up - dimming issue for HDR videos
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2019, 09:42 »
Oh so it’s thesubtitles ! I have a similar issue when watching YouTube, it sorts of auto DIM, so now I know it’s due to the subtitles / caption setting on YouTube

Great info

Offline desray

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Re: Heads up - dimming issue for HDR videos
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2019, 10:38 »
Oh so it’s thesubtitles ! I have a similar issue when watching YouTube, it sorts of auto DIM, so now I know it’s due to the subtitles / caption setting on YouTube

Great info

Local dimming in TV is akin to the Dynamic IRIS (DI) implementation in a Projector. Projector owners tends to see this fluctuation between "dimming and illuminating" more noticeably due to the enlarged screen size, hence more pronounced in a way but it will never quite get to the extent of being too "distracting" since Projector does not employ local dimming as it is projected as one single image on to the screen. The anomaly as a result of DI is fleeting "flickering" in light modulation for some projectors with too "aggressive" DI just like the older JVC generation projectors.

But I didn't actually expect OLED TV with smaller screen size with local dimming been plagued by it. The only benefit of DI in projector or local dimming in TV is to get the best "dynamic" Contrast and black levels out of the picture.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2019, 10:42 by desray »

Offline ronildoq

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Re: Heads up - dimming issue for HDR videos
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2019, 11:50 »
Local dimming in TV is akin to the Dynamic IRIS (DI) implementation in a Projector. Projector owners tends to see this fluctuation between "dimming and illuminating" more noticeably due to the enlarged screen size, hence more pronounced in a way but it will never quite get to the extent of being too "distracting" since Projector does not employ local dimming as it is projected as one single image on to the screen. The anomaly as a result of DI is fleeting "flickering" in light modulation for some projectors with too "aggressive" DI just like the older JVC generation projectors.

But I didn't actually expect OLED TV with smaller screen size with local dimming been plagued by it. The only benefit of DI in projector or local dimming in TV is to get the best "dynamic" Contrast and black levels out of the picture.

Oh thanks for the info, that explains. wasnt aware of all these . But I noticed the dimming on you tube cos I use subtitles on for YouTube . But no such issues for movies and Tekno3d file playbacks . Sevenz is right, now that he mentions it, I can recall having seen this dimming effect

But I don’t such bright subtitles issues after calibration on HDR, I use a warmer setting on the OLED plus I have biased lights, maybe that’s why it helped with the overall experience

Offline desray

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Re: Heads up - dimming issue for HDR videos
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2019, 11:52 »
Oh thanks for the info, that explains. wasnt aware of all these . But I noticed the dimming on you tube cos I use subtitles on for YouTube . But no such issues for movies and Tekno3d file playbacks . Sevenz is right, now that he mentions it, I can recall having seen this dimming effect

But I don’t such bright subtitles issues after calibration on HDR, I use a warmer setting on the OLED plus I have biased lights, maybe that’s why it helped with the overall experience

Yes, that does help.



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Offline sevenz

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Re: Heads up - dimming issue for HDR videos
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2019, 12:56 »
I briefly ran thru a few "normal" HDR movies, with average lighted similar scenes, e.g. like in a room, actors having convo. The dimming issue, wasn't 100%.

Some movies ok. Some had dimming on certain scenes with subtitles on, although much less pronounced. I noticed that those that didn't have issues, the subtitles were less bright/ illuminated.

But the 2 Tekno-mastered movies i watched, somehow the subtitles were SUPER BRIGHT. So that made the dimming super obvious.

HDR seems like treating the white subtitles like any other small white speculiar highlight in the picture. So, I wonder, if the movie is mastered at 10,000/ 4000 nits, does it mean the white in the white subtitles will also be brighter compared to one that is mastered at lower light output target like 1,000 nits? If yes, it could explain why this symptom is much more prominent on the Tekno files that are mastered at 4000 nits.

As for ABSL, I disabled the ASBL on my display via service menu and it made calibration process better. Cos previously sometimes, during calibration, the gamma would suddenly drop/change. Now more stable.

« Last Edit: April 19, 2019, 13:39 by sevenz »

Offline rockzilla

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Re: Heads up - dimming issue for HDR videos
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2019, 16:34 »
When i encounter the issue, i did some searching. It appear that it affected both qled and oled and various brands, no fix at the moment.

Some mentioned go into admin mode to disable local dimming, some disable subtitle, and some change the subtitle color. I personnel choice is still disable subtitle as the result is more constant.

Offline ronildoq

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Re: Heads up - dimming issue for HDR videos
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2019, 10:03 »
I briefly ran thru a few "normal" HDR movies, with average lighted similar scenes, e.g. like in a room, actors having convo. The dimming issue, wasn't 100%.

Some movies ok. Some had dimming on certain scenes with subtitles on, although much less pronounced. I noticed that those that didn't have issues, the subtitles were less bright/ illuminated.

But the 2 Tekno-mastered movies i watched, somehow the subtitles were SUPER BRIGHT. So that made the dimming super obvious.

HDR seems like treating the white subtitles like any other small white speculiar highlight in the picture. So, I wonder, if the movie is mastered at 10,000/ 4000 nits, does it mean the white in the white subtitles will also be brighter compared to one that is mastered at lower light output target like 1,000 nits? If yes, it could explain why this symptom is much more prominent on the Tekno files that are mastered at 4000 nits.

As for ABSL, I disabled the ASBL on my display via service menu and it made calibration process better. Cos previously sometimes, during calibration, the gamma would suddenly drop/change. Now more stable.

Though mastered in 4K or 10k nits, it will still be down to hardware specs to produce the peak luminance, in the case of the C7 the peak luminance is about 700nits only. It will not possibly hit 4000 nits. So far only the new Sony display is capable of 10,000 nits

Install the bias lights, that will help. There is remote where u can adjust the dim settings of the bias lights, that will help your eyes fatigue

Another option is to use grey subtitles , that should avert the problems as highlighted above

Finally, go with the OLED light that suits your taste. Don’t have to follow what the experts advice, follow what u think is right for your eyes, that is the most important thing. The reading is for your knowledge.

You calibrate to reference, then tweak to preference , that’s how u should approach every calibration, be it video or audio. Otherwise your journey never ends and u end up busy calibrating but not enjoying the moment. Time to pop in those HDR tekno movies and start enjoying ! It’s been almost a year now since u have owned the OLED , really should be enjoying the full benefits of HDR on the OLED

Offline desray

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Re: Heads up - dimming issue for HDR videos
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2019, 10:25 »
Though mastered in 4K or 10k nits, it will still be down to hardware specs to produce the peak luminance, in the case of the C7 the peak luminance is about 700nits only. It will not possibly hit 4000 nits. So far only the new Sony display is capable of 10,000 nits

Install the bias lights, that will help. There is remote where u can adjust the dim settings of the bias lights, that will help your eyes fatigue

Another option is to use grey subtitles , that should avert the problems as highlighted above

Finally, go with the OLED light that suits your taste. Don’t have to follow what the experts advice, follow what u think is right for your eyes, that is the most important thing. The reading is for your knowledge.

You calibrate to reference, then tweak to "preference", that’s how u should approach every calibration, be it video or audio. Otherwise your journey never ends and u end up busy calibrating but not enjoying the moment. Time to pop in those HDR tekno movies and start enjoying ! It’s been almost a year now since u have owned the OLED , really should be enjoying the full benefits of HDR on the OLED

Bro, sorry I have to disagree with you on the part of the video calibration (too generalized). While I wholeheartedly agreed on the audio part (sound is subjective) but the basis of video calibration is to get to the reference levels cannot be downplayed...what else is the primary purpose if not to get as close to the reference as possible? YOne should refrain from increasing the colors, tint, saturation or even the gamma settings AFTER you already got the reference levels right. Video unlike Audio, it is well documented and can be followed as far as REC709 is concerned. The recent issue is the introduction of HDR content and the ability of the display to output HDR content at it optimum setting (nits vs nits). No matter how we are going to view this HDR thing, some form of tone-mapping (which is also a form of compression) will have to be performed either at the source (4K UHD bluray player) or at the display end (TV or Projector). For HDR purist, Projector is and will NEVER be the way to go (at least for now) if you want that glorious bright picture image simply because the current light engine is unable to reproduce that amount of light source to bring out the best in HDR imagery. So the only way is still TV be it OLED or any equivalent form of technology. HDR calibration is a bit problematic as we delve further into the WCG and the use of ST2084 (different variant of measuring gamma)...this is where the problem comes in, some of the COTS colorimeter is either good at picking up colors or light but never good at both. Unlike REC 709, this is alot easier when we only use BT.709 colors and a constant gamma (2.0, 2.2, 2.3, 2.4 etc). For HDR, we can only opt for color accuracy or gamma accuracy...and I'll choose the latter any time for the simple reason - we need both low and high end of the IRE measures to be "clean" as possible. Colors will always be at least a DCI-P3 which almost guarantee a wide color gamut spectrum compared to BT.709.

In summary, we should as far as possible, try to get to the reference levels for video calibration...it is not a matter of preference but how far can we get to the reference.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2019, 10:29 by desray »

Offline ronildoq

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Re: Heads up - dimming issue for HDR videos
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2019, 10:44 »
Yes desray, I think you r right. Otherwise everyone will have their version of blue. This I agree, all has to be calibrated to reference. No doubt

But it seems that with the current HDR standard, even measuring the gamma is not really reference stuff. The correct method would be to use the EOTF target curve, as the reference. When software like chromapure don’t provide such a workflow, how do one go ahead and calibrate HDR to gamma targets and called it reference ?

Yea you can get close to reference, but that’s still not reference. It’s still preference, which is as close to reference.

And for the C7, there is definitely no way to calibrate to reference for HDR, it’s more to LG’s reference

Offline sevenz

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Re: Heads up - dimming issue for HDR videos
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2019, 14:36 »
Though mastered in 4K or 10k nits, it will still be down to hardware specs to produce the peak luminance, in the case of the C7 the peak luminance is about 700nits only. It will not possibly hit 4000 nits. So far only the new Sony display is capable of 10,000 nits

Install the bias lights, that will help. There is remote where u can adjust the dim settings of the bias lights, that will help your eyes fatigue

Another option is to use grey subtitles , that should avert the problems as highlighted above

Finally, go with the OLED light that suits your taste. Don’t have to follow what the experts advice, follow what u think is right for your eyes, that is the most important thing. The reading is for your knowledge.

You calibrate to reference, then tweak to preference , that’s how u should approach every calibration, be it video or audio. Otherwise your journey never ends and u end up busy calibrating but not enjoying the moment. Time to pop in those HDR tekno movies and start enjoying ! It’s been almost a year now since u have owned the OLED , really should be enjoying the full benefits of HDR on the OLED

Thanks bro! Haha, already enjoying keke. Slowly. Cos only can watch when baby is out of house. The colors, details & tone mapping from tekno files is syok. Love it.

But I'm still playing around to see what's best and won't affect the intended HDR PQ, esp the tone mapping and minimise errors in colour/gamma. Cos i want the pq to be as near to the intended standards as possible

This HDR thing is a pain, cos the more I read about it, the standards are not very standardised lol. I wonder what do calibration developers or calibrators feel about it. Will it be a pain and headache to them? Haha

I did try diff colour subtitles. It helped a bit but still affects dimming. So the best workaround for me is to - disable subtitles :)

I don't think bias lights will work for my eyes as i find it makes my viewing unnatural ie. have lights surrounding my display when watching. So still trying to read up more to see what can be done.

I did try adjusting OLED light B4, which did help reduce glare to my eyes. But the problem is - after some research online, the expert video calibrators who had calibrated OLEDs advise to leave oled light and contrast at 100. If we touch it, their inputs was that it affects the intended HDR tone mapping logic and screw up the colors. Ya, great right ....? I was like "then how?" 

Sigh. I wonder if enough thought had gone thru the whole HDR development

 
« Last Edit: April 20, 2019, 14:37 by sevenz »

Offline desray

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Re: Heads up - dimming issue for HDR videos
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2019, 16:22 »
Yes desray, I think you r right. Otherwise everyone will have their version of blue. This I agree, all has to be calibrated to reference. No doubt

But it seems that with the current HDR standard, even measuring the gamma is not really reference stuff. The correct method would be to use the EOTF target curve, as the reference. When software like chromapure don’t provide such a workflow, how do one go ahead and calibrate HDR to gamma targets and called it reference ?

Yea you can get close to reference, but that’s still not reference. It’s still preference, which is as close to reference.

And for the C7, there is definitely no way to calibrate to reference for HDR, it’s more to LG’s reference

Haha...now we are talking about semantics here. Let's not get into that. The proper advice that we should accord to everyone here is to calibrate to reference levels. The word "preference" is to allow users to resort to their own judgement of what shades of blue, red green or magenta you liked...What you "liked" is a preference of choice but may not be at a reference levels. I may perceive a particular shade of red roses to be accurate in "my eyes" (before calibration) but after calibration I found the red roses suddenly becomes less "vibrant"...hence I decide to increase the chroma levels (color saturation) by say a +2 or +3 to suit my viewing taste...there is absolutely nothing wrong with that but you are definitely deviating away from reference video level as any change in the primaries and secondaries will ultimately have an effect to the overall PQ - e.g. skin tones of a caucasian actor vs an Asian actor. If the studio colorist working on the film decide to use a neutral (natural lighting) color palette as opposed to a more stylistic concept shades of green or yellow tint (muted colors) - e.g. Matrix trilogy when it first released in bluray format...then we know that at reference levels, this is what it looks like since we have a baseline to make comparisons between what's neutral (natural) and what's artistic intent (deliberate addition of certain color over hues etc).

Today I visited Kenshin's place to demo the Denon X8500H flagship AVR and I was awed by the color accuracy of the Sony A8F and the deep blacks it can reproduce when playing 4K UHD content. I can't seem to find any tone-mapping feature in this TV. I was told that he did not perform any calibration and when he played back The Avengers Infinity War, I have to say that OOTB colors, black levels, shadow and specular details are very close (if not better) than my calibrated JVC N7 projector! I can quickly tell Sony had a winner on his hands...as it is as close to a reference levels and because of that, I can make an objective assessment immediately and tell Ken that the Sony A8F's color accuracy, black levels and shadow details are spot on and he literally needs little to no calibration. But if I start to use my "preference" as a benchmark, I will probably give the wrong advice to Ken to get him to tweak the colors a little and adjust the gamma settings which could potentially screw up the whole HDR image.

As always, this is just my opinions on this HDR calibration for TV (at this present point), I could be wrong in certain aspects since my calibration is on Projectors rather than TV. So what do I know... :P

Offline desray

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Re: Heads up - dimming issue for HDR videos
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2019, 16:26 »
Thanks bro! Haha, already enjoying keke. Slowly. Cos only can watch when baby is out of house. The colors, details & tone mapping from tekno files is syok. Love it.

But I'm still playing around to see what's best and won't affect the intended HDR PQ, esp the tone mapping and minimise errors in colour/gamma. Cos i want the pq to be as near to the intended standards as possible

This HDR thing is a pain, cos the more I read about it, the standards are not very standardised lol. I wonder what do calibration developers or calibrators feel about it. Will it be a pain and headache to them? Haha

I did try diff colour subtitles. It helped a bit but still affects dimming. So the best workaround for me is to - disable subtitles :)

I don't think bias lights will work for my eyes as i find it makes my viewing unnatural ie. have lights surrounding my display when watching. So still trying to read up more to see what can be done.

I did try adjusting OLED light B4, which did help reduce glare to my eyes. But the problem is - after some research online, the expert video calibrators who had calibrated OLEDs advise to leave oled light and contrast at 100. If we touch it, their inputs was that it affects the intended HDR tone mapping logic and screw up the colors. Ya, great right ....? I was like "then how?" 

Sigh. I wonder if enough thought had gone thru the whole HDR development

 

Bro, pls pay bro Kenshin a visit when you are free to see what a good display the Sony OLED TV can produce for HDR material. You'll not be disappointed. :)

Offline kenshin07

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Re: Heads up - dimming issue for HDR videos
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2019, 16:34 »
Thanks for the great advice on what to set on my a8f and oppo 203. Have not gone to this stage of touching the tv setting yet.

Of course anyone interested to see the sony af8 are welcome.
AVR: Denon AVC 8500
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speaker: Front/Center/Surround/SurrBack:Dynaudio contour s1.4, dynaudio 210C | PSB imagine s surround | PSB Imagine mini | Atmos spk AG diva SE
Sub: starke dual sub36
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Player: Oppo 203
Cable: AFA Zeus II PC (SUB), ESP reference PC (pwr amp, AVR, Oppo 203), AFA Zeus II speaker cable, oyaide MTB 6 with AFA Zeus II PC

Offline desray

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Re: Heads up - dimming issue for HDR videos
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2019, 16:50 »
Thanks for the great advice on what to set on my a8f and oppo 203. Have not gone to this stage of touching the tv setting yet.

Of course anyone interested to see the sony af8 are welcome.


Thanks for hosting me...I am very impressed with your Sony A8F. Worth every single cent of your investment :)

No need to meddle with video calibration imo...work on your sound (referring to the Atmos speakers per se...the rest of the speakers are fine) and "tame" your subwoofers further to live "harmoniously" with the rest of the speakers. That's my advice.  ;)

Offline kenshin07

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Re: Heads up - dimming issue for HDR videos
« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2019, 17:00 »
Thanks for hosting me...I am very impressed with your Sony A8F. Worth every single cent of your investment :)

No need to meddle with video calibration imo...work on your sound (referring to the Atmos speakers per se...the rest of the speakers are fine) and "tame" your subwoofers further to live "harmoniously" with the rest of the speakers. That's my advice.  ;)

Thanks for some pointers on atmos. Already working on it. Now the atmos experience is much better. 😁
« Last Edit: April 20, 2019, 17:08 by kenshin07 »
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Offline desray

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Re: Heads up - dimming issue for HDR videos
« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2019, 17:08 »
Thanks for some pointers on atmos. Already working on it. Now the atmos experience is much better. 😁

So fast ah... LoL Now to the subwoofers I suppose?

Offline ronildoq

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Re: Heads up - dimming issue for HDR videos
« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2019, 17:37 »
Thanks bro! Haha, already enjoying keke. Slowly. Cos only can watch when baby is out of house. The colors, details & tone mapping from tekno files is syok. Love it.

But I'm still playing around to see what's best and won't affect the intended HDR PQ, esp the tone mapping and minimise errors in colour/gamma. Cos i want the pq to be as near to the intended standards as possible

This HDR thing is a pain, cos the more I read about it, the standards are not very standardised lol. I wonder what do calibration developers or calibrators feel about it. Will it be a pain and headache to them? Haha

I did try diff colour subtitles. It helped a bit but still affects dimming. So the best workaround for me is to - disable subtitles :)

I don't think bias lights will work for my eyes as i find it makes my viewing unnatural ie. have lights surrounding my display when watching. So still trying to read up more to see what can be done.

I did try adjusting OLED light B4, which did help reduce glare to my eyes. But the problem is - after some research online, the expert video calibrators who had calibrated OLEDs advise to leave oled light and contrast at 100. If we touch it, their inputs was that it affects the intended HDR tone mapping logic and screw up the colors. Ya, great right ....? I was like "then how?" 

Sigh. I wonder if enough thought had gone thru the whole HDR development

I would focus on getting the white balance correct, 2 point. If after calibration and u still find it too bright and eyes pain,  go with what is comfortable to your eyes, ignore the pro advice.

I’ve hosted 6 members who watched infinity war on Tekno3d on the C7, none complaint eyes pain. I suggest u try warmer settings that is close to d65 reference, even if that means reducing OLED light at the expense of colour accuracy.

If you get the basic brightness, colour settings , sharpness etc all set right, u are already 70% there.

End of the day, u must be comfortable watching it, if it’s too bright, adjust it down. Try the default technicolor HDR mode, that mode has got a better more realistic cinema like mode

Until we have a better workflow for HDR calibration from chromapure, I’m afraid there is nothing much that can be done

Offline desray

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Re: Heads up - dimming issue for HDR videos
« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2019, 17:39 »
I would focus on getting the white balance correct, 2 point. If after calibration and u still find it too bright and eyes pain,  go with what is comfortable to your eyes, ignore the pro advice.

I’ve hosted 6 members who watched infinity war on Tekno3d on the C7, none complaint eyes pain. I suggest u try warmer settings that is close to d65 reference, even if that means reducing OLED light at the expense of colour accuracy.

If you get the basic brightness, colour settings , sharpness etc all set right, u are already 70% there.

End of the day, u must be comfortable watching it, if it’s too bright, adjust it down. Try the default technicolor HDR mode, that mode has got a better more realistic cinema like mode

Until we have a better workflow for HDR calibration from chromapure, I’m afraid there is nothing much that can be done


+1 with Roni.

Offline sevenz

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Re: Heads up - dimming issue for HDR videos
« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2019, 18:12 »
Bro, pls pay bro Kenshin a visit when you are free to see what a good display the Sony OLED TV can produce for HDR material. You'll not be disappointed. :)

Ooooh... That's great for Kenshin! For u to say good for PQ, it must be very good haha...

Is it possible to share what are the differences u (personally) find between the A8F vs the LG C7? (u probably might have caught a glimpse at Ronil's place)

I'll pay him a visit soon haha...  (Kenshin - only if u are ok ya

The recent issue is the introduction of HDR content and the ability of the display to output HDR content at it optimum setting (nits vs nits).

In summary, we should as far as possible, try to get to the reference levels for video calibration...it is not a matter of preference but how far can we get to the reference.

+1 too. Hopefully, this HDR technology (and whatever that comes with it) will streamline and then stabilise, with good & robust software/tools we can get to a standardised reference.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2019, 18:18 by sevenz »

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Re: Heads up - dimming issue for HDR videos
« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2019, 18:21 »
Ooooh... That's great for Kenshin! For u to say good for PQ, it must be very good haha...

Is it possible to share what are the differences u (personally) find between the A8F vs the LG C7? (u probably might have caught a glimpse at Ronil's place)


Oh no no no...let me make it clearer. I did not really focus on the LG C7 when I visited Roni's place last year as my focus is on the sound instead of video. Furthermore I sat too far away to pay any close attention to the details etc which is unfortunate but at Ken's place, his "seating distance" is quite near due to the constraints of the space and I was captivated by the uniformity of the panels and the black levels after he turned off his lights. It is very good based on my memory of the calibrated N7...both are very near in terms of colors and black levels and that's even w/o calibration!!! Color me impressed! I need to see the LG C7 before I can make any comments...who knows, LG may be even better than the Sony A8Fin certain areas...I'll never know until I actually spend some time looking at the HDR and SDR content of what C7 can produce before I pass any kind of judgement. It will be unfair.

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Re: Heads up - dimming issue for HDR videos
« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2019, 18:23 »
Thanks for the great advice on what to set on my a8f and oppo 203. Have not gone to this stage of touching the tv setting yet.

Of course anyone interested to see the sony af8 are welcome.


Ken, pls extend an invitation to bro Sevenz...

Offline ronildoq

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Re: Heads up - dimming issue for HDR videos
« Reply #26 on: April 20, 2019, 18:27 »
Ooooh... That's great for Kenshin! For u to say good for PQ, it must be very good haha...

Is it possible to share what are the differences u (personally) find between the A8F vs the LG C7? (u probably might have caught a glimpse at Ronil's place)

The Sony OLED is really good. But given a choice, I’d still go for the LGs C8 or C9, it has tone mapping feature that the Sony A8F doesn’t have. Tone mapping is a very important feature that I would not wanna miss out having.

A lot of the Tekno3d files that you are watching now are specially tone mapped at source, which is why u r seeing a lot of details. This tone mapped feature when kicks in, will emulate the dynamic metadata so content will look like Dolby vision... without the tone mapping feature, HDR10 will all pass through using the static metadata and it will not utilise the built in TVs algorithm for dynamic HDR . A dynamic HDR is much better than a static HDR

Important to have this tone mapping feature, the JVC N7 PJ has this feature

Offline sevenz

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Re: Heads up - dimming issue for HDR videos
« Reply #27 on: April 20, 2019, 18:32 »
I would focus on getting the white balance correct, 2 point. If after calibration and u still find it too bright and eyes pain,  go with what is comfortable to your eyes, ignore the pro advice.
Ha now I'm enjoying with the default mapping. Get familiar with the PQ first. I'm still trying to read up what reducing the OLED light + contrast (which reduces the peak light output) will do to the tone mapping b4 i tweak anything ;)

I’ve hosted 6 members who watched infinity war on Tekno3d on the C7, none complaint eyes pain. I suggest u try warmer settings that is close to d65 reference, even if that means reducing OLED light at the expense of colour accuracy.
Yea, i love the colors too. Syok. Esp on infinity war. Super good.
But I've measured the color Gamut on the primary colors on HDR using Chromapure. Result was not so good for some colors. I'll post the photos


If you get the basic brightness, colour settings , sharpness etc all set right, u are already 70% there.

End of the day, u must be comfortable watching it, if it’s too bright, adjust it down. Try the default technicolor HDR mode, that mode has got a better more realistic cinema like mode
yes, I'm using Technicolor mode currently =)

Until we have a better workflow for HDR calibration from chromapure, I’m afraid there is nothing much that can be done
+1 that the Chromapure software capability on HDR can be improved. Currently it's limited.




Offline kenshin07

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Re: Heads up - dimming issue for HDR videos
« Reply #28 on: April 20, 2019, 18:33 »

I'll pay him a visit soon haha...  (Kenshin - only if u are ok ya

+1 too. Hopefully, this HDR technology (and whatever that comes with it) will streamline and then stabilise, with good & robust software/tools we can get to a standardised reference.

Anytime bro, just pm me. Can arrange. 😁
AVR: Denon AVC 8500
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speaker: Front/Center/Surround/SurrBack:Dynaudio contour s1.4, dynaudio 210C | PSB imagine s surround | PSB Imagine mini | Atmos spk AG diva SE
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Offline sevenz

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Re: Heads up - dimming issue for HDR videos
« Reply #29 on: April 20, 2019, 18:34 »
These are some pre-calibration measurements for HDR on the Technicolor mode. Just the basic ones, didn't measure the color accuracy yet for primary and secondary colors.




« Last Edit: April 21, 2019, 11:03 by sevenz »

Offline desray

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Re: Heads up - dimming issue for HDR videos
« Reply #30 on: April 20, 2019, 18:53 »
The Sony OLED is really good. But given a choice, I’d still go for the LGs C8 or C9, it has tone mapping feature that the Sony A8F doesn’t have. Tone mapping is a very important feature that I would not wanna miss out having.

A lot of the Tekno3d files that you are watching now are specially tone mapped at source, which is why u r seeing a lot of details. This tone mapped feature when kicks in, will emulate the dynamic metadata so content will look like Dolby vision... without the tone mapping feature, HDR10 will all pass through using the static metadata and it will not utilise the built in TVs algorithm for dynamic HDR . A dynamic HDR is much better than a static HDR

Important to have this tone mapping feature, the JVC N7 PJ has this feature

Yes, tone-mapping feature is a boon feature to have. Then confirm Sony A8F don't have liao as I can't find the HDR settings that deals with tone-mapping. So Tekno3D mkv files already tone-mapped at the source end? So literally omitted the need for LG C7 to perform tone-mapping am I right?

And what is this techicolor HDR mode that you mentioned? What does it correspond to? any baseline? like DCI-P3 or BT2020?

Offline desray

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Re: Heads up - dimming issue for HDR videos
« Reply #31 on: April 20, 2019, 19:13 »
These are some pre-calibration measurements for HDR on the Technicolor mode. Just the basic ones, didn't measure the color accuracy yet for primary and secondary colors.

Green, Cyan and Red seems to be a bit off in the Gamut....






What is technicolor HDR mode? Is it using BT2020 chromaticity? Anyway since this is pre-calibration, this is only telling you what the technicolor entails in terms of the White balance, the color gamut and the luminance level (brightness). Colors have 3D - there are defined as HSL - (Hue, Saturation and Lightness).

If purely based on this pre-calibrated results, the BT2020 is barely hitting 70% (which is within the acceptable range for BT2020 - anything below 70% just shows the limitation of the color gamut unable to reach a good color reproduction of HDR). That's not a good mode to start with for calibration. I'm pretty sure after calibration, it will improve.

For the primary colors, the green is too much as far as White balance point is concerned. Green affects the overall luminance levels which directly ties to your brightness level, thereby affecting the contrast indirectly. Rule of thumb for calibration, green should not be touched unless absolutely necessary...play with Red and Blue gains/bias to compensate for the green.

For secondary colors, the Yellow, Cyan and Magenta (CMY), there is a huge color shift especially on the Yellow which affects the skin tones of a human.

In terms of chromaticity (colors), the green is under-saturated and so is Cyan. This will make the greenery a little more yellowish.

But these are just pre-calibration figures of what Technicolor HDR mode entails...I have no clue what are we measuring the base against.

Offline sevenz

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Re: Heads up - dimming issue for HDR videos
« Reply #32 on: April 20, 2019, 21:39 »
I need to see the LG C7 before I can make any comments...who knows, LG may be even better than the Sony A8Fin certain areas...I'll never know until I actually spend some time looking at the HDR and SDR content of what C7 can produce before I pass any kind of judgement. It will be unfair.

Cool understand. :)

Well if u don't mind my noob experience in display, and it's convenient for u, I invite u or any bros to look at the C7 calibrated PQ. :)

SDR is fully calibrated, 21 point, for 2 modes - bright and dark room. recently did fine tuning to reduce the deltas.

For HDR, it's a 2pt calibration for greyscale only. CMS is untouched as advised by the US calibrators.

Offline sevenz

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Re: Heads up - dimming issue for HDR videos
« Reply #33 on: April 20, 2019, 21:40 »
Anytime bro, just pm me. Can arrange. 😁

T u so much :) pmed!

Offline desray

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Re: Heads up - dimming issue for HDR videos
« Reply #34 on: April 20, 2019, 22:21 »
Cool understand. :)

Well if u don't mind my noob experience in display, and it's convenient for u, I invite u or any bros to look at the C7 calibrated PQ. :)

SDR is fully calibrated, 21 point, for 2 modes - bright and dark room. recently did fine tuning to reduce the deltas.

For HDR, it's a 2pt calibration for greyscale only. CMS is untouched as advised by the US calibrators.

What's your address?

Offline sevenz

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Re: Heads up - dimming issue for HDR videos
« Reply #35 on: April 20, 2019, 22:30 »

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Re: Heads up - dimming issue for HDR videos
« Reply #36 on: April 20, 2019, 23:49 »
Additional good info on the ABL vs dimming on LG 2017 OLEDs. See time stamp 4:50 in Vincent's review:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9OvPfPd8s0

Similar dimming issue on Samsung TVs too. This video captures it quite well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwb6VEDUWAI
« Last Edit: April 21, 2019, 00:05 by sevenz »

Offline sevenz

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Re: Heads up - dimming issue for HDR videos
« Reply #37 on: April 21, 2019, 00:46 »
These are some pre-calibration measurements for HDR on the Technicolor mode. Just the basic ones, didn't measure the color accuracy yet for primary and secondary colors.

Green, Cyan and Red seems to be a bit off in the Gamut....





Just to add on. The coverage of the wide color gamuts seems quite consistent with RTINGS. See here:
https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/c7-oled

Offline ronildoq

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Re: Heads up - dimming issue for HDR videos
« Reply #38 on: April 21, 2019, 08:41 »
Bro, I found the solution to your dimming lights issues

SWITCH OFF DYNAMIC CONTRAST on the OLED , when the tv kicks in into HDR mode, go in expert settings and turn off dynamic contrast.

So when desray mentions that it increased the blacks, it makes sense that the only setting that improved the black levels are dynamic contrast. Switch that off and turn on subtitles now, u will not see the dimming issue now

Voila !

Offline ronildoq

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Re: Heads up - dimming issue for HDR videos
« Reply #39 on: April 21, 2019, 09:49 »
Forgot to mention that on LG C7, setting the dynamic contrast to Low will turn on the tone mapping feature for HDR10 and it will use the TVs algorithm for tone mapping.

Even if the source file is specially tone mapped, the TV will still use its algorithm to process and tone map the HDR10 pic  if this is turned on, this includes the Tekno3d files

Superb quality when dynamic contrast is turned on for HDR10, but subtitles u will have the dimming issue

Hope that helps bro

Offline ronildoq

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Re: Heads up - dimming issue for HDR videos
« Reply #40 on: April 21, 2019, 10:56 »



Here is the manual, that’s what it does and why u r seeing dimming when subtitles appear ...

The answer to your question is in the manual

Either u switch off subs or switch off dynamic contrast .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline desray

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Re: Heads up - dimming issue for HDR videos
« Reply #41 on: April 21, 2019, 13:11 »
Good find Ron...thanks for sharing with the rest.

Offline sevenz

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Re: Heads up - dimming issue for HDR videos
« Reply #42 on: April 21, 2019, 13:48 »
Forgot to mention that on LG C7, setting the dynamic contrast to Low will turn on the tone mapping feature for HDR10 and it will use the TVs algorithm for tone mapping.

Even if the source file is specially tone mapped, the TV will still use its algorithm to process and tone map the HDR10 pic  if this is turned on, this includes the Tekno3d files

Superb quality when dynamic contrast is turned on for HDR10, but subtitles u will have the dimming issue

Hope that helps bro

Thanks for this bro. Good point.

Yes, 'Dynamic Contrast LOW' is meant to activate the dynamic tone mapping or Active HDR function on the OLED, a feature in the LG that helps enhance the HDR PQ using dynamic metadata on top of the static metadata. And if i'm not wrong, it's to help in the darker scenes too

Let's see if I understood this correctly....

So does this mean, if we disable dynamic tone mapping, it will just rely on whatever tone mapping that is done on the source (e.g. by Tekno) and ONLY static metadata, and then output it as it is?

And if we enable dynamic tone mapping, besides the tone mapping done by the source (e.g by Teckno), there will be one additional layer of tone mapping by the display that adds dynamic metadata? ie. it will then have whatever metadata that is intended by Tekno, and additionally dynamic metadata
« Last Edit: April 21, 2019, 13:55 by sevenz »

Offline desray

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Re: Heads up - dimming issue for HDR videos
« Reply #43 on: April 21, 2019, 14:24 »
Thanks for this bro. Good point.

Yes, 'Dynamic Contrast LOW' is meant to activate the dynamic tone mapping or Active HDR function on the OLED, a feature in the LG that helps enhance the HDR PQ using dynamic metadata on top of the static metadata. And if i'm not wrong, it's to help in the darker scenes too

Let's see if I understood this correctly....

So does this mean, if we disable dynamic tone mapping, it will just rely on whatever tone mapping that is done on the source (e.g. by Tekno) and ONLY static metadata, and then output it as it is?

And if we enable dynamic tone mapping, besides the tone mapping done by the source (e.g by Teckno), there will be one additional layer of tone mapping by the display that adds dynamic metadata? ie. it will then have whatever metadata that is intended by Tekno, and additionally dynamic metadata


Sounds about right...

Offline ronildoq

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Re: Heads up - dimming issue for HDR videos
« Reply #44 on: April 21, 2019, 14:29 »
Thanks for this bro. Good point.

Yes, 'Dynamic Contrast LOW' is meant to activate the dynamic tone mapping or Active HDR function on the OLED, a feature in the LG that helps enhance the HDR PQ using dynamic metadata on top of the static metadata. And if i'm not wrong, it's to help in the darker scenes too

Let's see if I understood this correctly....

So does this mean, if we disable dynamic tone mapping, it will just rely on whatever tone mapping that is done on the source (e.g. by Tekno) and ONLY static metadata, and then output it as it is?

And if we enable dynamic tone mapping, besides the tone mapping done by the source (e.g by Teckno), there will be one additional layer of tone mapping by the display that adds dynamic metadata? ie. it will then have whatever metadata that is intended by Tekno, and additionally dynamic metadata

Spot on ! That’s correct !!

Offline sevenz

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Re: Heads up - dimming issue for HDR videos
« Reply #45 on: April 21, 2019, 16:00 »
Arigato! :)

Ron - after u disable the active metadata/ dynamic tone mapping, do u observed any noticeable difference in the PQ of the tekno and/or non-tekno files?


Offline ronildoq

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Re: Heads up - dimming issue for HDR videos
« Reply #46 on: April 21, 2019, 18:35 »
Arigato! :)

Ron - after u disable the active metadata/ dynamic tone mapping, do u observed any noticeable difference in the PQ of the tekno and/or non-tekno files?

Disabling the Dynamic Contrast aka Tone Mapping on HDR10, didnt make any noticable difference to the pic quality much. I liked how tekno team tone mapped the files. So i sticked to dynamic contrast off.  But for normal HDR10, the contrast is better when dynamic turned on, especially obvious with fire scenes, gadgets and weapons. Try the pacific rim ones, on the Yaeger robots, that scene has got lotsa of details.....You can compare... But subtitle has to be turned off, the moment u turn that on, you will have that dimming issue every time the subtitles come on....

Nonetheless, hope that helped! All the best bro, dont spend too much time tweaking on HDR, focus on 2 pt white balance, fine tune with 20 point and go with the best OLED light that makes your viewing comfortable, then start enjoying all the Tekno3D movies! Lots to catch up!!

Offline sevenz

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Re: Heads up - dimming issue for HDR videos
« Reply #47 on: April 21, 2019, 22:19 »
Yea catching up! Slowly but gradually! Haha...

if u need help turning off asbl, let me know