Author Topic: Why cdplayer is better than streamer?  (Read 4527 times)

Offline qflyer

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Why cdplayer is better than streamer?
« on: April 11, 2019, 13:01 »
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgmzh77KMCU" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgmzh77KMCU</a>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgmzh77KMCU

Offline Doggie Howser

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Re: Why cdplayer is better than streamer?
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2019, 15:22 »
It is hard to compare a streamer and DAC when they have nothing in common. Not the brand, not the DAC chipset.

The interesting thing is when you use a CD player like the Arcam CDS50 which does have TIDAL streaming built in.

That way you can be sure you are using the same DAC/analog circuitry - just the digital transport is different.

And the weird thing is - the CD sounded better than the FLAC file I ripped into the Naim Uniti Core

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Offline jerome_the_lang

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Re: Why cdplayer is better than streamer?
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2019, 16:51 »
The ripping process on the naim sucks

 :P

Offline zaek

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Re: Why cdplayer is better than streamer?
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2019, 18:24 »
I have the same observation. Most of the time, cd sounds better than digital files. Perhaps is the processing on the dac
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Offline qflyer

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Re: Why cdplayer is better than streamer?
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2019, 18:34 »
It will be even more pronounced playing on a mid to high end CD player. All rippling introduces more noise.

BadEnglish

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Re: Why cdplayer is better than streamer?
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2019, 18:50 »
It will be even more pronounced playing on a mid to high end CD player. All rippling introduces more noise.

Loseless and FLAC 0 are bit perfect rips.

Offline qflyer

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Re: Why cdplayer is better than streamer?
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2019, 19:39 »
Loseless and FLAC 0 are bit perfect rips.
No such thing as bit perfect or loseless. This is pure marketing.

Offline drzero

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Re: Why cdplayer is better than streamer?
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2019, 20:41 »
at the end of it the CD is a medium, a normal standard cd contain FILES that are... lets say standard 16 bit 44.1khz

Then the CD Player would take this data through the DAC into analogue signal

I dont see why, if using the same DAC chip and component, amps speaker etc if the CD should sound better, the cd player is merely "playing" the digital file on the cd as opposed to streamer (on a hard drive or SSD )

especially if WAV FILE - pure pcm not compressed

FLAC could actually be compressed - depending on the encoding process

just my two cents...

although having said that i still buy CDs.... just to rip into my naim uniti core cd ripper

sound stupid but i like spending money and being able to see and hold what i buy , as opposed to spending $25 on hdtracks and receiving the files... nothing to see or touch

Offline bean

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Re: Why cdplayer is better than streamer?
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2019, 21:30 »
CD player does not just extract data from CD and send to DAC. The digital data are manipulated to improve the sound (aka "house sound").

Offline qflyer

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Re: Why cdplayer is better than streamer?
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2019, 21:48 »
The rippling process is 1 problem. The other is the noise coming from reading the files on the hard disk.
Hard disk is a noisy device.

Offline AndrewC

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Re: Why cdplayer is better than streamer?
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2019, 06:53 »
No such thing as bit perfect or loseless. This is pure marketing.



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Offline AndrewC

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Re: Why cdplayer is better than streamer?
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2019, 06:57 »
The sonic difference between CD Transports vs. Stream[er]s is in the path that the bit-streams take (including the interfaces involved), NOT in the actually bit-streams themselves which can be proven to be IDENTICAL. CD Players vs. Streamers+DACs is a wholly different story and not apples-to-apples comparison.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2019, 07:02 by AndrewC »
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Offline Doggie Howser

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Re: Why cdplayer is better than streamer?
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2019, 07:30 »
The sonic difference between CD Transports vs. Stream[er]s is in the path that the bit-streams take (including the interfaces involved), NOT in the actually bit-streams themselves which can be proven to be IDENTICAL. CD Players vs. Streamers+DACs is a wholly different story and not apples-to-apples comparison.

QFT

The path still affects the sound somehow which is what sometimes boggles the mind.

It’s like why even changing a digital interconnect can sound different.

Why a USB and AES being fed the same PCM stream to the same DAC can sound different.
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Offline joeling

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Re: Why cdplayer is better than streamer?
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2019, 21:20 »
This is the sad reality for me at the moment. I have invested more than 10 years into files as source from the old days of RME sound card to shoe horn USB interface into an Apogee Big Ben and done multiple Zalman fanless PC to Mac Mini and finally an Aurender W20. In the last 2 years or more, I am playing CDs again  :'(

Offline analogguy

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Re: Why cdplayer is better than streamer?
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2019, 21:43 »
I too thought that I have given up CDs as my previous CD Player used as a transport into an outboard DAC seems to sound not as good as my streamer into the same DAC. 

So, I sold the CD player and was relying only on streaming for a couple of years.

A few weeks ago, I bought a CD transport and what a revelation it has been.  I am rediscovering my CDs all over again.

Offline AndrewC

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Re: Why cdplayer is better than streamer?
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2019, 06:19 »
QFT

The path still affects the sound somehow which is what sometimes boggles the mind.
...


Doesn't surprise me at all that even the slightest change in bit-stream path (including cable difference) can have an audible sonic impact... (I can even measure bit-errors when I flex a fibre optic cable :))
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Offline malsound

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Re: Why cdplayer is better than streamer?
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2019, 20:36 »
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/JFnQSddvUWI&fs=1" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/JFnQSddvUWI&fs=1</a>

Offline AndrewC

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Re: Why cdplayer is better than streamer?
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2019, 22:10 »
The sonic difference between CD Transports vs. Stream[er]s is in the path that the bit-streams take (including the interfaces involved), NOT in the actually bit-streams themselves which can be proven to be IDENTICAL. CD Players vs. Streamers+DACs is a wholly different story and not apples-to-apples comparison.


Quoting myself here  ;D... but looks like Stereophile’s John Atkinson’s coming to the same conclusion… the latest dCS Rossini CD/SACD Transport review;

https://www.stereophile.com/content/dcs-rossini-transport-sacdcd-transport

Quote

These days I mostly listen to music streamed via my network from a Roon Nucleus+ server, so I needed to find out if playing a physical disc in the Rossini Transport sounded better or worse than sending the Rossini DAC the same data via Ethernet.

Playback levels and the spatial aspects of the sound were identical with the two media. However, to my surprise, the double bass in "Too Rich for My Blood" sounded fuller from the SACD played in the Rossini Transport than from Roon via the network. The same was true for the next track, "A Taste of Honey."

I repeated the comparisons with another recording I have as both an SACD and DSD64 files, the Dave Brubeck Quartet's Time Out (Columbia/Legacy CS 65122). Again the sounds were almost identical, except when it came to the double bass: the SACD sounded a little more full-bodied, more robust.

Color me puzzled. I'm sure the mastering of the versions of these two albums was consistent, but as the data are the same, the sound should be the same. Perhaps, as Jason Victor Serinus has surmised in these pages, an AES/EBU connection for serial data sounds better than an Ethernet or USB connection. I'm not going to give up my Roon Nucleus+—playing physical discs involves me getting up from my chair and crossing the room to the equipment rack—but these comparisons made me think.

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Offline jaffrie

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Re: Why cdplayer is better than streamer?
« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2019, 23:22 »
Too bad that you Gents are into commercial products. There's this little Sd card transport name SdTrans384 from
Japan. This little gadget is truly a ear opener. Do a google search if your interested.

Cheers

Offline AndrewC

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Re: Why cdplayer is better than streamer?
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2019, 10:39 »
Too bad that you Gents are into commercial products. There's this little Sd card transport name SdTrans384 from
Japan. This little gadget is truly a ear opener. Do a google search if your interested.

“Ear opener” compared to what exactly?

The SDTrans is this, yes?




Comparing this to some of the commercial FPGA-based transport platforms is like comparing an Intel Pentium to Skylake - literally a magnitude difference in performance capability ;D

Let me give you a more concrete comparison; the FPGA on the Chord Mojo (portable DAC about the size of the SDTrans) has 101,000 Logic Elements, the SDTrans has 15,000… (a) even if they can program the hell out of the “Pentium”, it’s not going to touch a “Skylake”, and (b) the folks who program these FPGAs are real professionals with multi-year DSP programming experience, a DYIer/hobbyist is not suddenly going to trounce every other commercial DSP programmer, sorry to say.

Have you actually heard any FPGA-based commercial transport platforms in your own home? If you have, which? If not, I suggest you do.  Nothing against DIY, but it’s good to be a bit more realistic lah :)
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Offline malsound

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Re: Why cdplayer is better than streamer?
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2019, 12:06 »
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/ip7XCYJE6Nw&fs=1" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/ip7XCYJE6Nw&fs=1</a>

Offline qflyer

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Re: Why cdplayer is better than streamer?
« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2019, 17:37 »
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/ip7XCYJE6Nw&fs=1" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/ip7XCYJE6Nw&fs=1</a>
Don’t trust anything coming from ps audio.

Offline jaffrie

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Re: Why cdplayer is better than streamer?
« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2019, 20:01 »
Looks like you've got all the smarts wrap up in your head ya Andrew C.
Audio is not just about numbers & specs. Sadly many seem to be caught up
in the Pen Is Mightier Then The Sword syndrome.


Offline AndrewC

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Re: Why cdplayer is better than streamer?
« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2019, 06:22 »
...Audio is not just about numbers & specs. ...

You’re right, it’s not all about specs of course… but unless you’re in the Matrix, you can’t hope to bend or break the fundamental laws of Physics ;D
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Offline jaffrie

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Re: Why cdplayer is better than streamer?
« Reply #24 on: April 27, 2019, 19:39 »
You cannot bend the law of physics but you can massage it Andrew.
Besides what's in the FPGA a just algorithms & in this context it depends on where it's core function is being applied too & not whether it's a Pentium vs Skylake scenario. The other thing to look at is, digital audio has progress very fast but has it really proven that old school digital is lacking way behind already ? All that I see
is commercialism & convenience of integration for the new generation of listeners/users & to these users it's like wow but if they get to listen to a properly set up old school system haizzzzz you wonder what all the hype in modern gear is for. Hence the resurgence for example LP play back, DHT Set amps, Horn speakers & dare I say
the good old TDA 16 bit Dac.

Cheers

Offline AndrewC

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Re: Why cdplayer is better than streamer?
« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2019, 06:15 »
You cannot bend the law of physics but you can massage it Andrew.
...

You can pick any hobby in the world, and there will always be people who prefer nostalgic old shít for emotional reasons. Doesn’t mean it’s actually any better than current technology. Where digital signal processing is concerned, it’s not just a different algorithm alone that’s going to make a difference, actual processing power is sonically significant, because it’s got to do with physics & mathematics, whether you like it or not :)

I notice you still haven’t told us exactly what other FPGA-based transport platforms you’ve compared the SDTrans against when you proclaimed it’s an “ear opener” compared to commercial platforms.

Well?
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Offline Boxerfan88

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Re: Why cdplayer is better than streamer?
« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2019, 07:31 »
actual processing power is sonically significant,

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Offline jaffrie

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Re: Why cdplayer is better than streamer?
« Reply #27 on: April 28, 2019, 13:17 »
Well Andrew last year I did manage to listen to a set up at my friends audio store.
System consisted of Dcs Vivaldi One played through a set of FM Acoustics system including speakers.
Mega expensive set up. Sounded very good but is it mega good, probably yes psychologically to the person
who throws that much money for an audio system. No I have not brought my little Sdtrans/dac set up for a direct comparo but one day soon I shall do just that.

Offline qflyer

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Offline jerome_the_lang

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Re: Why cdplayer is better than streamer?
« Reply #29 on: April 28, 2019, 16:20 »
StreamUnlimited transport very good - much more preferable to Esoteric transports, due to the speed of which SU transports respond to the touch on their operating buttons which vastly affect subsequent sound reproduction (soundstage, imaging, dynamics, and detail resolution).

Pity they dun make sacd capable transports.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2019, 16:42 by jerome_the_lang »

Offline ivanlyf_2011

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Re: Why cdplayer is better than streamer?
« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2019, 16:24 »
If I may join in the conversation - the Bryston BCD-3 is also using a CD drive module from Stream Unlimited, just like the Pro-Ject CD Box RS2 T

GPGT: http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/bryston-bcd-3-cd-player/?page=2

Update: There seems to be conflicting info -> James Tanner said in audio circle that the drive is SONY KHM313 but The Absolute Sound said it's Stream Unlimited

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=138639.120
« Last Edit: April 28, 2019, 16:27 by ivanlyf_2011 »
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Offline AndrewC

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Re: Why cdplayer is better than streamer?
« Reply #32 on: April 29, 2019, 07:20 »
Well Andrew last year I did manage to listen to a set up at my friends audio store.
System consisted of Dcs Vivaldi One played through a set of FM Acoustics system including speakers.
Mega expensive set up. Sounded very good but is it mega good, probably yes psychologically to the person
who throws that much money for an audio system. No I have not brought my little Sdtrans/dac set up for a direct comparo but one day soon I shall do just that.

Fair enough... So what did you compare the SDTrans to at home when you said it was an ear opener?? To your PC or what? I’m very curious because, for whatever reason, you saw the need to disparage commercial platforms… 

I decided to google SDTrans384 again, and this time included your name… imagine my surprise to see that in fact, you’ve basically been on this very same diatribe since 2015; So, for 4 or so years you’ve been telling people that the best Commercial platforms out there are not much better then your home (“DIY”) Redbook playback … Well, lucky you eh, no need to spend any more!!!  ;)

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Offline jaffrie

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Re: Why cdplayer is better than streamer?
« Reply #33 on: April 29, 2019, 15:36 »
Triode Corp CD5, Wadia 861 & Shenya Cdp Andrew. Coincidentally all 3 cdp uses the same PCM 1704 dac. Needless to say after the showdown, I sold bolth Wadia & Triode Corp cdp. Keeping only the Shenya just for testing purposes.
Did you give a listen to the music clip Andrew, that's the sound of my set up.
May not appeal to all but in audiophile terms, it's all there in SQ & this is plane Red Book playback.

Offline AndrewC

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Re: Why cdplayer is better than streamer?
« Reply #34 on: May 03, 2019, 00:12 »
Triode Corp CD5, Wadia 861 & Shenya Cdp Andrew. Coincidentally all 3 cdp uses the same PCM 1704 dac. Needless to say after the showdown, I sold bolth Wadia & Triode Corp cdp. Keeping only the Shenya just for testing purposes.
...

I think you misunderstood my question. I wasn’t asking about the CDPs that you compared your SDTrans+DAC to… You posted specifically about the SDTrans claiming it as an “ear opener”, and arguing about “commercial platforms”; 

Too bad that you Gents are into commercial products. There's this little Sd card transport name SdTrans384 from
Japan. This little gadget is truly a ear opener. Do a google search if your interested.

Cheers

So, I’m asking what other digital streaming platform(s) (discrete or otherwise) did you compare it to make the above claim?
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Offline Doggie Howser

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Re: Why cdplayer is better than streamer?
« Reply #35 on: May 03, 2019, 05:29 »
Had a guy call the shop the other day asking if we had demos. Errr yes. And he asked if he could bring in his own gear to test. I asked if it was certified for use in Australia. He said no. I said no.

Sounds like some guys just want validation their designs sound better than “really expensive gear”.

I don’t doubt that tweaking your own DIY design can sound better subjectively to you. But it’s a sample size of one.
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Offline Chowbotak

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Re: Why cdplayer is better than streamer?
« Reply #36 on: May 03, 2019, 07:45 »
 We all look for different things in sound. What is important is it sounds good to you
I buy hifi to suit my music, not buy music to suit my hifi.

Offline Doggie Howser

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Re: Why cdplayer is better than streamer?
« Reply #37 on: May 03, 2019, 10:22 »
We all look for different things in sound. What is important is it sounds good to you

Yes but then don't waste time bringing it to shops asking for demos to self sooth. Masturbation best done in the privacy of the home
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Offline Chowbotak

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Re: Why cdplayer is better than streamer?
« Reply #38 on: May 03, 2019, 11:06 »
Yes but then don't waste time bringing it to shops asking for demos to self sooth. Masturbation best done in the privacy of the home

Absolutely. Some will also ask for demo in shops for something they intend to buy from someone else ;D

Perhaps this is why sometimes we get cold reception from some sales ppl?
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Offline Instek_88

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Re: Why cdplayer is better than streamer?
« Reply #39 on: May 03, 2019, 16:12 »
Too bad that you Gents are into commercial products. There's this little Sd card transport name SdTrans384 from
Japan. This little gadget is truly a ear opener. Do a google search if your interested.

Jeffrie. Thanks for the sharing.

I will buy one of these to play with when I start building a DAC.

Offline lkypeter

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Re: Why cdplayer is better than streamer?
« Reply #40 on: May 11, 2019, 00:52 »
DH, Jerome, Pete MIA for long time.
1. Current Digital Setup Synology 8017+ <LAN>MacMini running Jriver 25 <LAN> SOTM SMS200 <USB> Ayon Stealth DAC...…
2. New Experiment Synology 8017 running minimserver and minimstreamer <LAN> SOTM SMS200 <USB> Ayon Stealth DAC
Using MConnecnt Control Point on iPad to direct music.

Surprised that (2) sounded for forward and transparent with nothing changed. I can ditch MacMini and JRiver.

Only thing MinimServer and Minim Streamer are free ware and only have bare bones and cannot read pdf liner notes important for classical music especially.

Any comments from sifu as to why?
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Offline BTW

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Re: Why cdplayer is better than streamer?
« Reply #41 on: May 11, 2019, 08:37 »
No Sifu here... but my guess... Simplicity has it's advantages... the fact that it's bare bones.. means very simple.. less things to go wrong.

Offline jerome_the_lang

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Re: Why cdplayer is better than streamer?
« Reply #42 on: May 11, 2019, 13:15 »
Memory retention fcuk up everything

 ;D

Offline jaffrie

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Re: Why cdplayer is better than streamer?
« Reply #43 on: May 11, 2019, 13:58 »
With the plethora of CDPs out there even the so called high end ones still have SQ differences between them & mind you expensive does not equal great sound ya. Now that I can afford at times I have thoughts of looking for a ML 31.5 transport which was my dream back then. The engineering that went into this transport is really something else.

Offline lkypeter

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Re: Why cdplayer is better than streamer?
« Reply #44 on: May 12, 2019, 01:20 »
Digital music uses computer storage and retrieval technology as the base. Those in hard disk or memory knows that there are actually many read write errors but the check summing allows reconstruction of actual data. Math sleuths of NUS high school genre can sit you dow on it.

In the Analogue days, error correction did not exist as maths but signal to sound ratio if i recall and recordings were made on open reel and some direct lathe cut to LPs. These direct cuts and first pressings were so valued that a high price is paid and prized by collectors. Not sure if they were worth the additional. Problem with records is wear and tear over time. Tapes also have flux drop and mold in our weather.

Am not that old to be playing those but my grandpa started me when i was about 7 on his thorens table and uher open reel.

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Offline malsound

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Re: Why cdplayer is better than streamer?
« Reply #45 on: May 12, 2019, 10:06 »
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/mF4qwwmss_s&fs=1" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/mF4qwwmss_s&fs=1</a>

Offline jerome_the_lang

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Re: Why cdplayer is better than streamer?
« Reply #46 on: May 12, 2019, 14:13 »
Are there any optical disc transport used for CD playback that reads and reads the data from the optical disc in several passes until data retrieval is perfect 100% ?

Offline lkypeter

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Re: Why cdplayer is better than streamer?
« Reply #47 on: May 12, 2019, 23:28 »
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/mF4qwwmss_s&fs=1" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/mF4qwwmss_s&fs=1</a>
Resonate Erin's associating her CD collection with past memories makes me recollect my colleague and friend Dr. John Paul Broeders enjoying our bachelor days spinning Michael Bolton CD at his home in yamate;yokohama. We share the same birth month and year but he was taken away by cancer some 10 years ago.

We were the only two foreigners working in the company that felt politely left out in a sea of japanese meetings, fax and social gatherings. English was far and few. We had to sort it out anyway. Having japanese girlfriend not a solution as his finanacee is 1-2 hours away in korea and my home situation in SG is all grey but 9 hours flight time.  He he.
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