Author Topic: Lyngdorf thread  (Read 20574 times)

Offline ronildoq

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Re: Lyngdorf thread
« Reply #45 on: January 21, 2019, 08:34 »
Took out my laptop and did a quick simulation of the response from historical measurement data...



The graph above shows stacked subs (in green) and colocated subs (in red)

Let’s see how far off the actual measurements are from the simulated ones... the dip at 12hz is due to the opening at the kitchen... that should go away if the kitchen door is closed , fully sealed Hall.

The stacked subs has a lot of energy/ room gain from 30 down to 8hz

This is the raw version before any EQ, they should complement each other... will take actual measurements tonight then will dismantle the system tomorrow ... so I’ll have raw data before the engineer arrives, this way I can compare and ask the right questions when he is around...


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Offline ronildoq

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Re: Lyngdorf thread
« Reply #46 on: January 21, 2019, 08:55 »
If one observes closely to the graph, you will realise why I picked this combination.

The response from the subs more or less reflects the target curve from harman curve, it’s like a downward sloping curve, even before I start any EQ. This then helps preserves the energy levels from the subs. Meaning the subs don’t have to work hard to achieve the required SPLs and target, hence less or no EQ applied...

This is my approach, minimal EQ by using placement to bring out what’s best about the seatons in this hall...

Next is to let the Lyngdorf do its magic to attenuate the peaks and null... let’s see how good is RP, measured in amplitude and time vs actual listening ...


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Offline ronildoq

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Re: Lyngdorf thread
« Reply #47 on: January 22, 2019, 08:35 »
Ok, confirmed measurement , simulated amplitude response not as accurate, the room Sim is. But for amplitude, not so accurate.... so back down to basic, actual measurements are best, no chance for shortcut



The green above is the stacked subs. I’ve inserted a high pass filter for the co located subs shown in blue, a high pass of 23hz 48db Butterworth filter. I could just leave it without the high pass filter. It will contribute to the ULF. But I have energy going into the room, the high pass filter on the colocated subs will bring about the lower midbass and midbass Attack and speed, not introducing too much energy into the room on other areas. (PS: a dip at MLP <30hz, could be a peak at other locations), high passing was the obvious choice for me...I’ll use the stacked corner subs for ULF, should have ample juice with a 6000w amplifier at 1.5k watts each, that should be more than enough horse power



This is the actual response before room perfect, measured at a target 80db, both summing up without having to reach for the delay knob or to invert phase...



Now let’s look at the subs in the time domain... you can see it’s clean down from 56hz to 100hz , decay is less than 0.4ms from 56hz onwards. This means the kitchen sliding bass trap door (this is a special door, with 120kg density rockwool stuffed inside, backing with mass loaded vinyl and ply finishing.) and the ceiling panels are working as intended. Previously I used to have ringing at 68hz and 90hz... this is now eliminated, measurements taken at 40db above noise floor , as u can see in red, the peak SPLs at 92db.
The only problem now is the 55hz ringing, u can see it extends up to more than 1ms, this is nasty. It is caused by the height modes in the room and I know exactly where this location is. But I’ll use EQ to attenuate this peak and bring down the ringing. This can be confirmed from the second graph above as well, u can see the peak in the room at 55hz. As for the 20-40hz slow decay rate, this Is common, especially for lower frequencies. But for these frequencies, I’ll use the PSI active bass trap to improve decay times and I know exactly where this should be placed.

All in, you will notice that the decay rates are uniform, consistent, and somewhat downward sloping according to the room. Downward sloping meaning from 56hz onwards at 0.38ms and as it approaches 100hz, the time taken for the energy to dissipate becomes 0.2ms, as can be seen from the blue plume...

Everything is exactly where I want it to be, for HT... this can be confirmed with actual listening, a much tighter and controlled midbass and upper midbass, very natural indeed due to the consistent decay rates...

Now that I have the collective measurement data, it’s time to dismantle the system and hook up the lyngdorf today

My focus is mainly on bass management and bass, this is the most difficult area in my experience setting up a HT system, but let’s hope RP blends the mains and subs well, let’s see what RP will bring to the table

More updates as and when I have them...

My main job is to bring out the best in the MP-50 in my living room, the subs, and all the equipment in the chain.

No Pain No Gain !


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Offline sdds

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Re: Lyngdorf thread
« Reply #48 on: January 23, 2019, 07:49 »

Offline ronildoq

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Re: Lyngdorf thread
« Reply #49 on: January 23, 2019, 08:17 »
More Uk forum review : https://www.avforums.com/threads/lyngdorf-mp-50-long-term-review.2212529/


Nice just finished reading it, somehow from every review I read, coming from end users, they seem to be pairing it with the MK speakers, I suppose the signature complements the lyngdorf DAC well... concurs to what I heard at your place on the MK surrounds , it just disappeared from the room... very good the MK speakers




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Offline ralfale

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Re: Lyngdorf thread
« Reply #50 on: January 23, 2019, 10:32 »
Consistent decay rates ... very nice!

Offline wizardofoz

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Re: Lyngdorf thread
« Reply #51 on: January 23, 2019, 14:50 »
Anyone using the TDAI 3400 or 2170 Stereo products? These have Room Perfect.
I have a pile of stuff that pushes out squiggly waveforms from smaller squiggly waveforms that sometimes come from 1's and 0's.
It's wonderful to behold as long as you don't let the magic smoke out.

Life is short! Enjoy the music while it plays, when it stops, there might be a chair for you...or  maybe not.

Offline sdds

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Offline ronildoq

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Re: Lyngdorf thread
« Reply #53 on: January 26, 2019, 12:23 »
Ok Denmark engineer from lyngdorf dropped by and we had a good time, about an hour plus on the system

Before that, let me share what’s being hooked up into the system



Here is a pic of the placement of the front end...gears used in pairing the lyngdorf

Power conditioner- plixir elite BAC 3000
Power cord - Divini PTC 350
Lyngdorf Mp -50
Mogami 2497 balanced cables
Dual monoblocks XPA-1 powering mains, ati525 powering centre, surrounds and surround back, Apollon 8200 Class D Hypex Ncore powering all 8 Atmos.(on its way from Austria) I’ll be using a splitter to send the same signal from TOP front to front height. They both carry the same signal. Distance put into the avr is middle of where the TOP front and front height speakers are

Engineer had a look at surroundings, and he is an acoustician and designer of the Jamo speakers. First advice that came from him, your back pair of subwoofers can go into the front wall corners. Your front stacked subs at corner is good, perfect.

He advised that with RP, it’s good to place the subs at the boundary, corners. I asked him why? He said if u placed a subs in midwall, like how I do, the subs energy will radiate in 360degrees, u will have a lot of reflections to tame. However if subs are placed at the corner at boundary, there will  only be one reflection off the boundary wall, and the impulse will be in line with mains, this will then give u the speed and Attack and much cleaner bass



This type of placement for subs is good, when used with RP, as the focus of RP is in the time domain, not so on the amplitude / frequency response . He said yes u can easily achieve a good amplitude response, but to achieve a good time alignment is very difficult....

This then struck my mind, I remembered last time having read the Ken Kreisel manual, they advocate boundary corner placement as well for their subs... it’s mainly due to this concept as well, the transient Attack of bass is much controlled due to corner boundary placement



Quote from Kk:

Determine the optimum subwoofer mounting location, which normally is the closest corner to where you sit

Designed for optimum performance &  frequency response when placed in the  corner closest to the listening position

Unquote:

In any case, my subs are at back of MLP , he said to test it and then try again to move it in front right stacked at corner again, this place will work for me as well, it’s the balcony area, but I will listen to the current set up as it is now, then move again when the Apollon amp arrives to hook up the remaining 4 channels


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Offline desray

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Re: Lyngdorf thread
« Reply #54 on: January 26, 2019, 12:29 »
Did you ever question why even Lyndorf does that? LoL...

Bro, did u ask about the distance input?


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Offline whitesox

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Re: Lyngdorf thread
« Reply #55 on: January 26, 2019, 12:31 »




Here is a pic of the placement of the front end...gears used in pairing the lyngdorf


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Wow.. it is awesome setup bro.... ready to pay you a visit during 2nd day of CNY ? (I visited you last year also)
Love to see your room and setup except for your two bass traps... Imagine if you can remove it.... wow, your setup will look even better and neat.

Looking forward to see your room response when all subs is interacting with your C speaker (after EQ)

 :)
« Last Edit: January 26, 2019, 12:36 by whitesox »

Offline ronildoq

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Re: Lyngdorf thread
« Reply #56 on: January 26, 2019, 13:40 »
I have not done any measurements, haven’t had the time. Must have a look at the before and after response. He did mention many other things as well

1. It’s also good practice to measure what RP is doing, after calibration. There may be a need to manually tweak to enhance the system further, so fine tuning is still required. He mentioned the RP does integration of mains and subs very well, there is no need for any distance tweaks or adjustment, but it’s good practice to check and fine tune further

2. He also advise using a higher crossover of subs with mains, somewhere into 160hz to 300hz !! An octave above at least, I went like Wow! Won’t u be able to localise the subs ?? He said no! With the front left right pair, you won’t be able to localise . I believe this is where all the moving bass is happening , bass moving circular motion and up left down and right , when using  the auxiliary bass connection to send stereo bass and LFE to the lyngdorf mp50

3. He mentioned bass is missing on the right area, a lot of energy could be felt at the stacked location, this is before RP. So he said try different options and listen to what u like then decide

4. He mentioned lyndorf corrects for full response 20hz up to 20khz. No Schroeder EQ and no options to altar frequency range to be EQ. It will always EQ full range, but we can bypass RP with a button.

5. On subwoofer distance, he mentioned to put in the distance up to the back of the subs from MLP, the first reflection point off that boundary wall to MLP. He mentioned the algorithm will do the work when it comes to blending the subs and phase and time, as it measures the power response of the speakers and subs and applies filters accordingly.

I saw him nodding his head many times, when demoing the system. He said entire system is well placed, speakers and that the mains and surrounds imaging is good. This is before RP

Can’t wait, will take actual measurements soon and lets see what’s happening with RP

Offline ronildoq

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Re: Lyngdorf thread
« Reply #57 on: January 26, 2019, 13:43 »
Bro, did u ask about the distance input?


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Yes I specifically asked him that. He said put in the actual measured distance , don’t tweak the distance, because doing that will provide a good amplitude response but will mess up the impulse in the time domain.... he said time domain response is far more critical compared to just the amplitude response... so he told me don’t worry about amplitude response , just place it at the front corners, put in the measured distance, let RP do its magic

Offline desray

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Re: Lyngdorf thread
« Reply #58 on: January 26, 2019, 14:29 »
Yes I specifically asked him that. He said put in the actual measured distance , don’t tweak the distance, because doing that will provide a good amplitude response but will mess up the impulse in the time domain.... he said time domain response is far more critical compared to just the amplitude response... so he told me don’t worry about amplitude response , just place it at the front corners, put in the measured distance, let RP do its magic

Ok thanks.


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Offline Jag

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Re: Lyngdorf thread
« Reply #59 on: January 27, 2019, 08:21 »
He is essentially saying to ignore frequency response and assume (without verifying)RP will get time domain Impulse response spot on?

I find it hard to swallow without data though.
Electronics : Denon 7200, MiniDSP Dirac 88A, Emotiva XPA-5 Gen2
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