Author Topic: Troubleshooting help required - New Bryston B135 cubed integrated amplifier buzz  (Read 1595 times)

Offline ivanlyf_2011

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Dear all,

I'm hearing a buzz from my speakers after I replaced my Roksan Kandy K3 integrated amplifier with a new Bryston B135 cubed integrated amplifier. The B135 was bought and installed into my setup on wednesday but I only noticed the buzz today.

Description of issue:
A hum / buzz from my B&W 705S2 speakers even when there is no music playing. The hum/buzz can only be heard when I go near the speaker, at my usual sitting position, I have to really concentrate to hear the buzz. It doesn't get louder than the music.

Recent change:
Replaced my Roksan Kandy K3 Integrated Amplifier with Bryston B135-cubed Integrated Amplifier. No other changes.

Setup:
Roksan Kandy K2 CD Player -> S/PDIF -> Bryston BDA-2 -> VDH RCA -> Bryston B135 cubed -> VDH Spkr -> B&W 705 S2 speakers

All equipment are connected to an Isotek Evo 3 Sirius

Tests performed

1. Tested Roksan & Bryston as a standalone equipment.
All RCA cables from upstream sources unplugged, only power cable and speaker cables plugged in. Amplifier connected to wall socket alone.
Outcome: Buzz persists once amp is turned on for Bryston. No buzz for Roksan.

2. Tested Bryston back in the setup as described above.
No music playing but adjust the volume up and down.
Outcome: Buzz persists.

3. Tested Bryston back in the setup as described above.
Connect BDA-2 to a different amp input port, no music playing and adjust the volume up and down.
Outcome: Buzz persists.

4. Tested Bryston back in the setup as described above.
Bypassed BDA-2; connect CD player direct to amp input port, no music playing and adjust the volume up and down.
Outcome: Buzz persists.

Any idea what else to do?

AFA audio says it's my system problem because there was no buzz at the store and maybe because the original fuse blew so the replacement fuse might cause the buzz.

Thank you for your help.
Ivan
« Last Edit: November 03, 2018, 21:29 by ivanlyf_2011 »
Bowers and Wilkin 705S2, Sennheiser HD800, Bryston B135 Cubed Integrated Amplifier, Bryston BHA-1 Headphone Amplifier, Bryston BDA-2 DAC, Roksan Kandy K2 CD Player, Isotek Evo 3 Polaris, Isotek Evo 3 Sirius.

Offline Boxerfan88

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Disconnect all sources at amp side. Just amp & speakers, still buzz?


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Offline ivanlyf_2011

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Disconnect all sources at amp side. Just amp & speakers, still buzz?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes still buzz. Test condition 1 as described was that test scenario of amp and speaker alone without source connections.

I’ve even repeated it with the Roksan, Roksan amp is ok, no buzz.
Bowers and Wilkin 705S2, Sennheiser HD800, Bryston B135 Cubed Integrated Amplifier, Bryston BHA-1 Headphone Amplifier, Bryston BDA-2 DAC, Roksan Kandy K2 CD Player, Isotek Evo 3 Polaris, Isotek Evo 3 Sirius.

Offline jaffrie

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Why did the fuse blow ? Might have to open up to check

Offline ivanlyf_2011

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Why did the fuse blow ? Might have to open up to check

Good point - I'm not sure either. At AFA (SG's authorised Bryston distributor), the sales person said probably because the unit too long never turn on since it was shipped from the factory. As far as I can see, the B135 cubed was brand new in box so I don't think it has been tested since it left the factory.

AFA's defence was that there was no humming during the short functional test that was done so there's probably nothing wrong with the B135. However, they are okay if I bring the unit back to test.
Bowers and Wilkin 705S2, Sennheiser HD800, Bryston B135 Cubed Integrated Amplifier, Bryston BHA-1 Headphone Amplifier, Bryston BDA-2 DAC, Roksan Kandy K2 CD Player, Isotek Evo 3 Polaris, Isotek Evo 3 Sirius.

Offline jaffrie

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You should bring it back. At times when speakers at show room are low sensitivity you'll not hear hum or buzz issues. In general such issues can be traced to cold soldering or grounding.

Offline nfnc

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AFA audio says it's my system problem because there was no buzz at the store and maybe because the original fuse blew so the replacement fuse might cause the buzz.

Thank you for your help.
Ivan

Good point - I'm not sure either. At AFA (SG's authorised Bryston distributor), the sales person said probably because the unit too long never turn on since it was shipped from the factory.
...

AFA's defence was that there was no humming during the short functional test that was done so there's probably nothing wrong with the B135. However, they are okay if I bring the unit back to test.

Honestly ..... Replacement fuse causing buzz?!  Unit too long never turn on => fuse blows and buzz develops?

Wow

If a fuse blows, it is more likely that there is a fault somewhere - your AC supply, the fuse or the amp (possibly transformer, power supply board, etc)

Would suggest that you bring the amp back to AFA for them to open up and insist that the check & test properly.

James Tanner from Bryston is on XP (search for James from Bryston). You can PM him - I am sure that he will at your dealer’s responses.

Alternatively, message him on facebook https://m.facebook.com/pg/BrystonLtd/about/#!/BrystonLtd/
« Last Edit: November 04, 2018, 02:08 by nfnc »

Offline Boxerfan88

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Yes still buzz. Test condition 1 as described was that test scenario of amp and speaker alone without source connections.

I’ve even repeated it with the Roksan, Roksan amp is ok, no buzz.

Apologies, my oversight.
Having a quick scan of your product manual, there is a pair of switch that you can separate the preamp section. Try switching to “separate” with no sources.

If the buzz stays, then your amp section is generating the buzz. If the buzz goes away, it implies the preamp section is contributing the buzz.

If you’ve a headphone, try to checkout the headphone output for buzz.


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« Last Edit: November 04, 2018, 06:42 by Boxerfan88 »
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Offline ivanlyf_2011

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Honestly ..... Replacement fuse causing buzz?!  Unit too long never turn on => fuse blows and buzz develops?

Wow

If a fuse blows, it is more likely that there is a fault somewhere - your AC supply, the fuse or the amp (possibly transformer, power supply board, etc)

Would suggest that you bring the amp back to AFA for them to open up and insist that the check & test properly.

James Tanner from Bryston is on XP (search for James from Bryston). You can PM him - I am sure that he will at your dealer’s responses.

Alternatively, message him on facebook https://m.facebook.com/pg/BrystonLtd/about/#!/BrystonLtd/

Yeah I know...I felt as if I was treated like a fool in their response. I've done my due diligence to try some test cases and it all failed, at least tell the user to bring it back for check up instead of being so defensive and saying the unit didn't hum at the store.

Yes - I've also emailed Bryston directly on their website via the technical support and made a complain on AFA. I will see Bryston's response - corresponded with Brian Russell 2 days ago so I can email him directly too if I need.

Thanks - will be more insistent that AFA Audio check it for me.
Bowers and Wilkin 705S2, Sennheiser HD800, Bryston B135 Cubed Integrated Amplifier, Bryston BHA-1 Headphone Amplifier, Bryston BDA-2 DAC, Roksan Kandy K2 CD Player, Isotek Evo 3 Polaris, Isotek Evo 3 Sirius.

Offline ivanlyf_2011

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Apologies, my oversight.
Having a quick scan of your product manual, there is a pair of switch that you can separate the preamp section. Try switching to “separate” with no sources.

If the buzz stays, then your amp section is generating the buzz. If the buzz goes away, it implies the preamp section is contributing the buzz.

If you’ve a headphone, try to checkout the headphone output for buzz.


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Good idea. I have a headphone (Senn HD800) too so I will go try out these suggestions in the afternoon.

Thank you,
Ivan
Bowers and Wilkin 705S2, Sennheiser HD800, Bryston B135 Cubed Integrated Amplifier, Bryston BHA-1 Headphone Amplifier, Bryston BDA-2 DAC, Roksan Kandy K2 CD Player, Isotek Evo 3 Polaris, Isotek Evo 3 Sirius.

Offline AndrewC

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...All equipment are connected to an Isotek Evo 3 Sirius

...

Ivan, before you go poking around inside the Amp, have you tried connecting the Amp directly into the Wall AC socket and nothing connect to it except the speakers? Or a different AC power point altogether?

Especially, disconnect your Isotek Evo3, it appears to have some inductive coupling between sockets, which I can’t imagine would be any good for a highly transparent Amp like the Bryston ;)

http://www.isoteksystems.com/products/performance/evo3-sirius
Quote

Unique Inductive Resistance Gate© optimises the isolation between each of the six outlets.


Good luck!  :)
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Offline ivanlyf_2011

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Hi to all who've helped - I did the additional tests as requested and no the buzz doesn't go away:

Apologies, my oversight.
Having a quick scan of your product manual, there is a pair of switch that you can separate the preamp section. Try switching to “separate” with no sources.

If the buzz stays, then your amp section is generating the buzz. If the buzz goes away, it implies the preamp section is contributing the buzz.


I have done that, switched to separate the pre-amp (i.e. disconnect pre-amp from amp) and also disconnect the RCA cables so the amp is not connected to source. Still buzzing

If you’ve a headphone, try to checkout the headphone output for buzz.

I have done that, switched to separate and also connected, with my Sennheiser HD800, no buzz at all. Headphone output works as upon connecting it in, the speakers are mute as described in the manual.

I think with the 2 test cases above, we can further isolate the problem to the power amplifier section.




Ivan, before you go poking around inside the Amp, have you tried connecting the Amp directly into the Wall AC socket and nothing connect to it except the speakers? Or a different AC power point altogether?

Especially, disconnect your Isotek Evo3, it appears to have some inductive coupling between sockets, which I can’t imagine would be any good for a highly transparent Amp like the Bryston ;)


Hi Andrew, yes I have tested the amp in a standalone test (See Test 1 in opening post):
- Amp is connected directly to a wall socket by itself (no conditioners or another device sharing that socket)
- Only cables connected are speaker cables and power cable (no connection to upstream source or downstream component)
- Buzzing sound is still heard.
- Repeated standalone test with Roksan amp -> no buzzing sound heard.
Bowers and Wilkin 705S2, Sennheiser HD800, Bryston B135 Cubed Integrated Amplifier, Bryston BHA-1 Headphone Amplifier, Bryston BDA-2 DAC, Roksan Kandy K2 CD Player, Isotek Evo 3 Polaris, Isotek Evo 3 Sirius.

Offline kaydee6

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Is it a buzz or hiss? Some amps have the hiss like Naim amps.
If it is buzzing, I would ask for replacement. If after replacement, still the same and it could be caused by your home grounding issue. Again, ask for a refund as the amp design and specification did not meet your expectation like the Roksan did.

Offline ivanlyf_2011

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Is it a buzz or hiss? Some amps have the hiss like Naim amps.
If it is buzzing, I would ask for replacement. If after replacement, still the same and it could be caused by your home grounding issue. Again, ask for a refund as the amp design and specification did not meet your expectation like the Roksan did.

I think I would call it a hiss.

Another thing I observe is when I disconnect the pre-amp from the amp in my B135, the hiss is still present but it's softer.

Don't think can refund -> just hoping that AFA Audio is willing to have a look at it and if it needs to be returned to Bryston, to do so speedily instead of taking their own sweet time to ship
Bowers and Wilkin 705S2, Sennheiser HD800, Bryston B135 Cubed Integrated Amplifier, Bryston BHA-1 Headphone Amplifier, Bryston BDA-2 DAC, Roksan Kandy K2 CD Player, Isotek Evo 3 Polaris, Isotek Evo 3 Sirius.

Offline nfnc

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Would you mind sharing:

- when did the fuse blow?
- what happened just before the fuse blew?
- did it happen at the dealer or at your place?
- who replaced the fuse and was it with the same type and value?

Offline micktal

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Hi

Since u bought new u can demand a replacement or repair foc under the new lemon law.

https://www.gov.sg/factually/content/what-is-the-lemon-law

Should not let retailers get away with defective products.

Offline AndrewC

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...
Hi Andrew, yes I have tested the amp in a standalone test (See Test 1 in opening post):
...

Oops, sorry, missed reading that!  ;D

That said, do try another AC line elsewhere in the house if you haven't already; a buddy of mine had a similar problem with his Amp-speaker buzzing... turned out one of his kids had plugged in some cheapo China phone charger into another AC socket elsewhere in the house but on the same line. Once the charger was unplugged, the buzzing disappeared!
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Offline ivanlyf_2011

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Hi everyone,

Sorry for the delay but I think I should describe my problem as a buzz, not any of the 60 / 120 hum as described in the link below.

https://www.psaudio.com/ps_how/how-to-find-and-fix-hum/

I also managed to find the fuse rating of my Bryston B135-cubed (it's pasted on the chassis itself) so I'm going to get the correct fuse this evening and see how it goes.

Also an update: AFA says I can send in the unit for a check-up if I want, so I'll do that next weekend and will also see what Bryston says directly.
Bowers and Wilkin 705S2, Sennheiser HD800, Bryston B135 Cubed Integrated Amplifier, Bryston BHA-1 Headphone Amplifier, Bryston BDA-2 DAC, Roksan Kandy K2 CD Player, Isotek Evo 3 Polaris, Isotek Evo 3 Sirius.

Offline Boxerfan88

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If got time, use your phone to record audio clip & post leh. Getting curious.

Is it like microphone with poor connection to PA system type buzz?


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Offline wusplay

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actually I think choosing Bryston B135 to drive 702s2 is an excellent decision. Just so unfortunate that you encounter the buzz issue.End up it turn a dream (sort of) into a nightmare (exaggerated i know).

Offline ivanlyf_2011

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If got time, use your phone to record audio clip & post leh. Getting curious.

Is it like microphone with poor connection to PA system type buzz?


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Sorry, can't figure a way to post an audio clip into my reply but it is likely as you said "microphone with poor connection to PA system type buzz", a bit like a sssst sound.

Okay to summarize thus far:

i. Now inserted the correct fuse rating into the B135, the hiss is still present.
ii. Decided not to connect all the components in the same conditioner as I felt that it reduces the dynamic range of the B135-cubed. Risk vs Benefit analysis -> Benefit of dynamic range outweighs the hiss since the hiss is not loud.
iii. Previous standalone testing with headphone & also disconnecting the pre-amp to the amp have determined the source of the hiss to be from the amplifier stage, not the pre-amplifier stage.

Still awaiting Bryston's reply since it's still the weekend over there. Will likely bring back to AFA audio soon as well, see Bryston's advice first
Bowers and Wilkin 705S2, Sennheiser HD800, Bryston B135 Cubed Integrated Amplifier, Bryston BHA-1 Headphone Amplifier, Bryston BDA-2 DAC, Roksan Kandy K2 CD Player, Isotek Evo 3 Polaris, Isotek Evo 3 Sirius.

Offline andylovesaudio

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Mine also got slight buzz/Hummish sound from tweeter...but I using tube Int amp. Let’s do some snooping. On system ... no music... who kena slight hiss/buzz/hum? Who has dead silence? Tube or SS also can. How far can hear? Ears on tweeter only ... 6 inch ...1 ft ... 2ft?
P

Point being ... slight noise is not uncommon and not necessarily a malfunction but it’s just the way it is due to design. Still could be something wrong ... but what if after check ...nothing found ?
« Last Edit: November 05, 2018, 23:56 by andylovesaudio »

Offline stereoman2

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Dear all,

....  a new Bryston B135 cubed integrated amplifier. The B135 was bought and installed into my setup on wednesday but I only noticed the buzz

Let the agents earn their commission.

If it is so new, you can get them to rectify the issue. If they insists it's yr equipment use back the original amp or get another - no buzzing, they need to provide warranty.

Bryston has great pride in providing warranty - U can report the agent to Bryston main office & let them remind their agents of the Bryston commitment to customers @ http://bryston.com/pages/warranty.html

or, an except ...

"Warranty Details
Bryston analog audio products and loud speakers are warranted to be free from manufacturing defects for twenty (20) years from the original date of manufacture. The warranty includes parts and labour. Speaker warranty is limited to the first time buyer and is non-transferable.
Bryston Digital products and cables are warranted for five (5) years from the original date of manufacture. The warranty includes parts and labour.

Bryston products having motorized moving parts, excluding motorized volume controls, are warranted for three years from the original date of manufacture. The warranty includes parts and labour.

Bryston will remedy the problem by repair or replacement, as we deem necessary, to restore the product to full performance. Bryston will pay return shipping costs for the full length of the specific product’s warranty.

In the event of a defect or malfunction, contact Bryston repair centers for return authorization. Products must be returned using original packaging material only. Packing material may be purchased from Bryston if necessary. This warranty is considered void if the defect, malfunction or failure of the product or any component part was caused by damage (not resulting from a defect or malfunction) or abuse while in the possession of the customer. Tampering by persons other than factory authorized service personnel or failure to fully comply with Bryston operating instructions voids the warranty. This warranty gives you specific legal rights and you may also have other rights which may vary from province to province and country to country.

As of 2006-02-22 Bryston will only warranty Bryston products purchased through authorized Bryston dealers. Bryston products with a date code of 0608 or higher (date code format is “yyww”, where “yy” is the two least significant digits of the year and “ww” is the week of the year) must be accompanied by a copy of the bill-of-sale from a Bryston authorized dealer to qualify for warranty service. The warranty is transferable from the original owner to a subsequent owner as long as a copy of the bill-of-sale from the original authorized Bryston dealer accompanies the re-sale. The copy of the bill of sale to any subsequent owner need ONLY include the Name of the Bryston Authorized Dealer and the Model and Serial number of the Bryston product. The warranty will only be honoured in the country of the original purchase unless otherwise pre-authorized by Bryston.

"
« Last Edit: November 05, 2018, 23:46 by stereoman2 »

Offline ivanlyf_2011

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No reply from Bryston yet...decided to email Brian Russel directly as a follow up from a previous query. See what Bryston advises, worst case, have AFA send back to Canada.

Just a thought, will it help if I use a twin core cable instead of a single core cable? But the termination will still be in rca though...
Bowers and Wilkin 705S2, Sennheiser HD800, Bryston B135 Cubed Integrated Amplifier, Bryston BHA-1 Headphone Amplifier, Bryston BDA-2 DAC, Roksan Kandy K2 CD Player, Isotek Evo 3 Polaris, Isotek Evo 3 Sirius.

Offline stereoman2

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No reply from Bryston yet...decided to email Brian Russel directly as a follow up from a previous query. See what Bryston advises, worst case, have AFA send back to Canada.

Just a thought, will it help if I use a twin core cable instead of a single core cable? But the termination will still be in rca though...

If u used a diff amp & no buzzing, then Bryston should do the right thing for U. Now it could be a different story if other amp(s) utilise produce the bussing sound as well....

Offline ivanlyf_2011

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Final update:

I've managed to talk to Brian Russell about the hissing sound of the B135 cubed. In addition, I've also informed him all the tests I've done, and he has also asked for further details on how audible is the hiss (must I stand near the speaker, do I hear it at my normal listening position, etc.).

Bryston: How close are you to the speaker when you hear a hiss?  Can you hear it when you are in a normal listening position?

Myself: I have to be pretty close like within 15cm to hear it.

At my normal listening position, I won’t hear it unless I really strain my ears. And when the music plays, the sound easily drowns the hiss.

Bryston: What you have described is simple transformer noise. The sound of electricity passing through the transformer.  If it was louder, then there may have been an issue.

From a risk-benefit analysis, I've decided to leave the issue be for now. The B135 cubed sounds way better than the Roksan K3 and the hiss cannot be heard from the normal listening position and is further drowned out once the music plays  Furthermore, it sounds like the hiss is a design limitation for which it's resolution may not be worth the effort and money paid.

I guess down the road, I may just buy a separate power amp and use the B135-cubed solely as a pre-amplifier when I move up the speaker lineup
Bowers and Wilkin 705S2, Sennheiser HD800, Bryston B135 Cubed Integrated Amplifier, Bryston BHA-1 Headphone Amplifier, Bryston BDA-2 DAC, Roksan Kandy K2 CD Player, Isotek Evo 3 Polaris, Isotek Evo 3 Sirius.

Online BadEnglish

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In old school ,

To test a pre-amp is listening at different input while playing music at other input.  E.g if you are playing music on CD input and Tape input is empty,  select tape.  Then turn up the volume about to 11 o'clock ,  and put ear near to speaker.

You should hear the song in very low volume nothing else.
Trying very hard to reproduce the music and sound that creative mixing-artists composed in the studios, at home with limited knowledge and resources.

Offline wusplay

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Transformer hum from a big amp is not unusual , but it is not accetable if it send the noise through the speakers. (not talking about ground loop noise.)

Naim also puts this in their user manuals. But highlighted that Transformer hum is not transmitted through the speakers.


"A hi-fi system usually shares a mains circuit with other household equipment some of which can cause distortion of the mains waveform. This distortion can in turn lead to mechanical hum from mains transformers. Some Naim transformers are large in size, making them relatively sensitive to such distortion, and it may be necessary to take account of transformer hum when siting your equipment. Transformer hum is not transmitted through the speakers and has no effect on the performance of the system; however, a separate mains circuit may reduce it."

Offline ivanlyf_2011

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Talk about suay. My B135 Integrated Amplifier has spoilt again.

Plugged into the AC wall socket, turned on the switch and no light. I checked the fuse, it does not look blown.

Will send to AFA this saturday.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2018, 06:53 by ivanlyf_2011 »
Bowers and Wilkin 705S2, Sennheiser HD800, Bryston B135 Cubed Integrated Amplifier, Bryston BHA-1 Headphone Amplifier, Bryston BDA-2 DAC, Roksan Kandy K2 CD Player, Isotek Evo 3 Polaris, Isotek Evo 3 Sirius.

Offline nfnc

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Was this resolved?

Offline ivanlyf_2011

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Yes resolved by AFA. About 3 weeks now and it’s fine
Bowers and Wilkin 705S2, Sennheiser HD800, Bryston B135 Cubed Integrated Amplifier, Bryston BHA-1 Headphone Amplifier, Bryston BDA-2 DAC, Roksan Kandy K2 CD Player, Isotek Evo 3 Polaris, Isotek Evo 3 Sirius.

Offline nfnc

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Good to know