Author Topic: How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?  (Read 3459 times)

Offline Doggie Howser

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How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?
« on: October 27, 2018, 10:25 »
Over the years, I know most of us have invested copious amounts of money into an HT system without even blinking an eye.

But this morning, I just sat in our "entry level" Home Theater room and I am playing Pacific Rim UHD (first one - the better one by far) through a modest system like this:
Anthem MRX720 Dolby Atmos playing 5.1.2 with
B&W 603 front
B&W HTM6 centre
B&W 606 surround
B&W ASW610XP system
KEF Q50a
Loewe 55" bild 4.55 OLED TV

and I have to say I was really immersed in it.

Have we made our HT system more complex for complexity's sake? With preamp processors and multi channel power amps etc.

Granted - I believe the MRX720 is the reason for why the whole system works so well together with good clean power but the MRX720 works out less than a Marantz SR7012 here and it sounded way better than a similar set up I sold a customer a year ago.

I think for my next place, I am going to keep it simple - MRX1120 or equivalent, KEF LS50 x 7s, Q50a x 4.
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Online Tiktokape

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Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2018, 12:25 »
;D "spent" or "invested"? My current HT system, I don't remember spending more than $12k for the entire system (Denon 7200WA, Anthony Gallo speakers, Rythmik E15HP - 5.1.4) including sources like Media player & Bluray player, still quite happy till date with lesser time spent on it too. My boy took much of the time for his kiddo fix than my movies fix. I will probably overhaul once he is older while keeping a lookout for DIRAC based AVR while the rest remained intact.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2018, 12:27 by Tiktokape »

Offline desray

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Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2018, 17:32 »
Over the years, I know most of us have invested copious amounts of money into an HT system without even blinking an eye.

But this morning, I just sat in our "entry level" Home Theater room and I am playing Pacific Rim UHD (first one - the better one by far) through a modest system like this:
Anthem MRX720 Dolby Atmos playing 5.1.2 with
B&W 603 front
B&W HTM6 centre
B&W 606 surround
B&W ASW610XP system
KEF Q50a
Loewe 55" bild 4.55 OLED TV

and I have to say I was really immersed in it.

Have we made our HT system more complex for complexity's sake? With preamp processors and multi channel power amps etc.

Granted - I believe the MRX720 is the reason for why the whole system works so well together with good clean power but the MRX720 works out less than a Marantz SR7012 here and it sounded way better than a similar set up I sold a customer a year ago.

I think for my next place, I am going to keep it simple - MRX1120 or equivalent, KEF LS50 x 7s, Q50a x 4.

I think you, me and sdds are the ones who have ditched the Japanese AVR for an American brand. Not saying Japanese brand not good...Denon is still one of my fave Japanese brand featuring my pre-loved Audyssey calibration algorithm but ever since I listened to the Anthem MRX AVR, I' had come to realize how much "oomph" I am missing from movies - even the "depth-charge" scenes from U-571 took a whole new level of "movie-sounding" experience all over again for me.

Its sad that local dealers like Hwee Seng did not do justice to this brand...

Offline desray

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Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2018, 17:32 »
;D "spent" or "invested"? My current HT system, I don't remember spending more than $12k for the entire system (Denon 7200WA, Anthony Gallo speakers, Rythmik E15HP - 5.1.4) including sources like Media player & Bluray player, still quite happy till date with lesser time spent on it too. My boy took much of the time for his kiddo fix than my movies fix. I will probably overhaul once he is older while keeping a lookout for DIRAC based AVR while the rest remained intact.

Wise move...

Offline YANG

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Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2018, 17:41 »
I think you, me and sdds are the ones who have ditched the Japanese AVR for an American brand....
Once one goes Western... There's no looking back @ the Eastern moon...
I started with Sherwood, sticker with Singapore built Philips n China built Philips.

Offline YANG

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Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2018, 17:48 »
Should I'm to get a replacement system in case of current setup goes kaput... AMDK engineered NAD will be my entry door to the west wing, the Onkyo to the east wing.

Offline desray

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How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2018, 17:48 »
Once one goes Western... There's no looking back @ the Eastern moon...
I started with Sherwood, sticker with Singapore built Philips n China built Philips.

I personally believe the eastern brand AVR is better as an all-rounder performer - both in music and movies (for higher end)...the American and European brands tends to perform effortlessly well in the movie department but when it comes to music reproduction, the Japanese brands will have a slight edge.

My 2 cents worth.


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Offline desray

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How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2018, 18:24 »
This part gets me confused... Are u saying that Anthem is not priced:
-much premium high enuff given it's performance
-or not low enuff to get wider exposure to counter the Japanese marques popularity?

I'm with the latter u know... When there's competition, there's improvement on technical n performance in engineering. It's like Sherwood n Carver n Adcom in the past against the 4 major Japanese marques with additional contestants from Sony n Marantz.

No marketing effort to push. I literally found out from Anthem official webpage to get to know that Hwee Seng is the appointed dealer here in Singapore. There is little to no mention of Anthem products here in Singapore.

This is the part that I feel rather disappointed.



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Offline YANG

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Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2018, 18:24 »
......Hwee Seng did not do justice to this brand...
This part gets me confused... Are u saying that Anthem is not priced:
-much premium high enuff given it's performance
-or not low enuff to get wider exposure to counter the Japanese marques popularity?

I'm with the latter u know... When there's competition, there's improvement on technical n performance in engineering. It's like Sherwood n Carver n Adcom in the past against the 4 major Japanese marques with additional contestants from Sony n Marantz n Nakamichi.

Offline YANG

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Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2018, 18:37 »
No marketing effort to push...
Marketing adds additional costs to the already high cost operation of businesses...
First heat often falls on the property of operation. Logistics as well as Administration n Marketing.
Follows by the costs inflicted from local logistic operations as well as shipping from manufacturer.
Lastly, staffing. Sales n logistic operation may be standard, technical know how on aftersales support is costly ... For

Offline desray

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Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2018, 18:48 »
Marketing adds additional costs to the already high cost operation of businesses...
First heat often falls on the property of operation. Logistics as well as Administration n Marketing.
Follows by the costs inflicted from local logistic operations as well as shipping from manufacturer.
Lastly, staffing. Sales n logistic operation may be standard, technical know how on aftersales support is costly ... For

What’s the point of being appointed as the dealer and not even make an effort to push?!

All these are excuses as far as I’m concerned. U r in the AV business. What’s the talk about cost and training of staff have to do with sale?



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Offline ralfale

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Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2018, 19:39 »
Sometimes is all about mindset. Back to basics , if just want to sit down and enjoy a simple movie night with family, don't really need to burst our budget.

The expectations totally swing if want to play demo scene, emulate the best home setup you have experienced , want clarity , solid punch and deep rumble, sometimes got to spend to get quality.

Offline YANG

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Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2018, 19:44 »
Nah... I'm not in the AV Consumer Electronics business... But being in consumer product company, I saw the impact of what marketing costs can do to business costs n eventually effecting the whole company operation here in SGP, then finally how poor impression can sticks to old customers as well as potential new...

Offline YANG

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Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2018, 19:53 »
There are generally 3types of consumers in the market.
One group that easily suckered into Marketing.
One group that studies deep into component n engineering eventually experiencing.
The last that do both.

I belongs to that niche middle group that doesn't clicks well with Marketing n Sales ppl, but firm believer base on studying what specs under the hood, as well as how the maker do well in the business of that product type... BestDenki sales staff @ Vivo n Taka hates me when I asked for remotes to explore their TVs.

Offline kaydee6

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Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2018, 19:55 »
What’s the point of being appointed as the dealer and not even make an effort to push?!

All these are excuses as far as I’m concerned. U r in the AV business. What’s the talk about cost and training of staff have to do with sale?



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Marketing is one thing. Service is another. I always consider the service quality when I put in the money for AV equipments. This is especially true when equipments are priced high. Are there training for the service guys or does the company just hire someone who can hold a soldering iron? I suspect most dealers are of the latter. A company who sells through dealers who are not marketing and servicing the products right is irresponsible and is also to blame.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2018, 19:59 by kaydee6 »

Offline desray

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Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2018, 20:00 »
Anyway Singapore AV market is considered small especially for high end equipment. Most consumers these days wanted something simple to operate like a sound bar to match a OLED TV. I guess we xtremers here are the minority. I guess there is nothing much we can do.



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Offline rock123

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Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2018, 20:09 »
What’s the point of being appointed as the dealer and not even make an effort to push?!

All these are excuses as far as I’m concerned. U r in the AV business. What’s the talk about cost and training of staff have to do with sale?



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Thumbs up.
Yah be able to carry the product need to push and deliver sales.:) regardless of ALL Factors. :)
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Offline sevenz

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Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2018, 23:31 »
Over the years, I know most of us have invested copious amounts of money into an HT system without even blinking an eye.

But this morning, I just sat in our "entry level" Home Theater room and I am playing Pacific Rim UHD (first one - the better one by far) through a modest system like this:
Anthem MRX720 Dolby Atmos playing 5.1.2 with
B&W 603 front
B&W HTM6 centre
B&W 606 surround
B&W ASW610XP system
KEF Q50a
Loewe 55" bild 4.55 OLED TV

and I have to say I was really immersed in it.

Have we made our HT system more complex for complexity's sake? With preamp processors and multi channel power amps etc.

Granted - I believe the MRX720 is the reason for why the whole system works so well together with good clean power but the MRX720 works out less than a Marantz SR7012 here and it sounded way better than a similar set up I sold a customer a year ago.

I think for my next place, I am going to keep it simple - MRX1120 or equivalent, KEF LS50 x 7s, Q50a x 4.

thanks for posting your thoughts on this bro.

in the recent weeks/months, i've also been thinking about this.

My thoughts are to change my AVR to a DIRAC-capable one like the NAD T777 and do away with power amp and just rely on the NAD AVR for the juice.

And switch to coaxial speakers for LCR, e.g. KEF Q or R series. Maybe bookshelves as they are easier to drive using an AVR only setup. I'm particularly impressed with KEF Uni-Q after hearing how well its speaker to speaker integration is and the very nice mid range and immersion it can give.

It could just sound very nice with a sweetspot price point. What do u think  =)

Offline desray

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How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?
« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2018, 06:44 »
Marketing is one thing. Service is another. I always consider the service quality when I put in the money for AV equipments. This is especially true when equipments are priced high. Are there training for the service guys or does the company just hire someone who can hold a soldering iron? I suspect most dealers are of the latter. A company who sells through dealers who are not marketing and servicing the products right is irresponsible and is also to blame.

Not entirely agree with you on this. No doubt it will make good business sense for Anthem to help throw in some marketing money to help the local dealer/distributor to promote their products in their native country but it depends how big is our market to begin with. If Hwee Seng only place order of small quantities like say 1 or 2 units each quarter, if I were Anthem, I will not waste money on Hwee Seng. Hwee Seng on the other hand, being the seller and aggregator of AV products need to spend and focus their marketing dollars on brands and products they can sell but it is their onus to set aside some marketing dollars to promote other products that they decided to carry as well and in this case, Anthem. I’m sure if some dollars being spent and create the awareness and sale order goes up a little, Anthem will start to take Singapore market seriously. But if no effort expended from Hwee Seng to at the very least allocate a small amount of marketing effort to promote the brand, no customer will be aware (unless they made an effort to search Anthems distribution channels in their official website). I still think Hwee Seng can do better. Prove to the manufacturer your importance and want to become a value partner with them first. Then partnership in marketing drive with Anthem helping Hwee Seng to defray some of their marketing cost will have more teeth otherwise Anthem will not be bothered.



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Offline Doggie Howser

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Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?
« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2018, 09:29 »
The thing is - in Australia, the Anthems aren't even all that expensive. But the power amps on those MRX are really good enough that I can skip an external power amp.

Granted - HDMI handshaking is not as robust as with the Japanese brands but I do have a complex set up in the shop... I have an audio matrix switch to switch between 5 amplifiers (2 of which are surround sound)... and I have dual HDMI out from the Panasonic UHD player - video to the Anthem and audio to the Arcam. TV is connected to Anthem - and the video out from Arcam goes to the Anthem but it is the only way I can switch between amps



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Offline ballhead

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Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?
« Reply #20 on: October 30, 2018, 09:34 »
since current dealer in SG is not up to par, does it make sense to buy direct from Anthem online? Usually if sales service got no standard, we can correlate that to the after-sales service too

Offline desray

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Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?
« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2018, 21:18 »
since current dealer in SG is not up to par, does it make sense to buy direct from Anthem online? Usually if sales service got no standard, we can correlate that to the after-sales service too

I think you have misunderstood me. I'm not saying NOT to buy from Hwee Seng just simply because I "personally" felt that it did not do justice to the product itself - in terms of marketing drive...that is different on whether Hwee Seng as a company providing after-sale service is sub-par (which I have no experience at this point, only time will tell). That is 2 different things. Hence I will still encourage members that if you really want to get your hands on an Anthem MRX AVR, you should get from Hwee Seng (since it is the ONLY authorised distributor/dealer in Singapore whether we like it or not)...at the very least there is some form of "protection" against DOA product.

Offline econav

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Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2018, 01:27 »
Hwee Seng  selling thru pro dealer in the custom and install market and they do have it in BD and Courts . if you compare SG vs MY which market you will take and protect it? not to mention there still a Indonesia market.
ppl in Xp does not know well this brand ,that does not means they are not well accepted in other area that Xp ppl don't know yet, as .......
 
I guess we xtremers here are the minority. I guess there is nothing much we can do.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2018, 01:51 by econav »
We are not second hand dealer , all items we sell as used are tradedin from our customer and we don't rate it condition but for the buyer to decide on it own.
From time to time we may sell off some New but open up used for rental/standby/loan items and to ensure they cant be sold as Brand new , we will dispose off the box.
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Offline kaydee6

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Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2018, 07:09 »
Not entirely agree with you on this. No doubt it will make good business sense for Anthem to help throw in some marketing money to help the local dealer/distributor to promote their products in their native country but it depends how big is our market to begin with. If Hwee Seng only place order of small quantities like say 1 or 2 units each quarter, if I were Anthem, I will not waste money on Hwee Seng. Hwee Seng on the other hand, being the seller and aggregator of AV products need to spend and focus their marketing dollars on brands and products they can sell but it is their onus to set aside some marketing dollars to promote other products that they decided to carry as well and in this case, Anthem. I’m sure if some dollars being spent and create the awareness and sale order goes up a little, Anthem will start to take Singapore market seriously. But if no effort expended from Hwee Seng to at the very least allocate a small amount of marketing effort to promote the brand, no customer will be aware (unless they made an effort to search Anthems distribution channels in their official website). I still think Hwee Seng can do better. Prove to the manufacturer your importance and want to become a value partner with them first. Then partnership in marketing drive with Anthem helping Hwee Seng to defray some of their marketing cost will have more teeth otherwise Anthem will not be bothered.



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I agree with your perception.
Another brand that is unknown and carries by Hwee Seng is Paradigm. I had a demo of the Persona series in their showroom. I wanted it to be driven by the Anthem 1120. Sales staff is friendly however, the demo is done connected to a cheap disc spinner with a few dollars interconnect. This is a pair of of 5 figure floor standing speakers. The saving grace is the system sounded decent but could be much better.

Offline desray

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Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2018, 07:23 »
Hwee Seng  selling thru pro dealer in the custom and install market and they do have it in BD and Courts . if you compare SG vs MY which market you will take and protect it? not to mention there still a Indonesia market.
ppl in Xp does not know well this brand ,that does not means they are not well accepted in other area that Xp ppl don't know yet, as .......
U see...I don't even know that best denki and courts carries Anthem AVR...this is EXACTLY the problem I m talking about here. NOBODY KNOWS. Thanks for further pointing out the obvious.

While I m speaking from an average consumer perspective, you are talking from a custom installer point of view. If information (marketing drive) requires an average customer to dig further in order to know where to buy, then the likelihood of customers getting hold of it reduces greatly. It requires eye balls and word of mouth for products like Anthem and other esoteric brands to flourish. Imagine even if I read that Anthem or any other brands are good but when I did a normal search, it did not say anything about who carries them...next step is to email to reach out to the manufacturer then probably we get some answers (or not at all)...the issue here is if I have to spend time searching for answer, it reduces the chance of the product been discovered in the first place. If u carry a product as a dealer, you want to make sure word of mouth or at the very least some form of online advertisements can easily attract prospective buyer attention. But there is none other outdated information to say the least.


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« Last Edit: November 01, 2018, 07:26 by desray »

Offline kaydee6

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Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?
« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2018, 08:05 »
This thread and the anthem thread is marketing for Hwee Seng. We the consumers do the tough part, dealers are order takers.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2018, 08:08 by kaydee6 »

Offline desray

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Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?
« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2018, 08:38 »
This thread and the anthem thread is marketing for Hwee Seng. We the consumers do the tough part, dealers are order takers.

Haha.....”free” marketing for Hwee Seng.



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Offline YANG

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Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?
« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2018, 09:15 »
Hwee Seng  selling thru pro dealer in the custom and install market and they do have it in BD and Courts .......
Courts selling... i think is no more liaoz la... 2yrs ago maybe, but not now.
Even Harvey also selling old model like MRX510... no new model by Anthem.

It's sometime about branding and market placing. It's up to Anthem and HweeSeng to decide what kind of market sector they want the product to be in. The entry market? The middle sector? Or the high-end target?

Looking back, Sherwood was like the entry, Carver somewhere in the middle, ADCOM pre-pro was in the mid-highs...Those in the higher ends one will have full separates like Lexicon, Theta, Parasound, Macintosh as well as others lor...
But...then during that time, all the 3 brands mentioned above also same like Anthem, though not so widely available... yet not so pathetic as if now u can only find Anthem thru HweeSeng, AudioHouse as well as perhaps one or two another dealer nia...

Offline econav

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Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?
« Reply #28 on: November 01, 2018, 13:07 »
Where is Sherwood now.......Where is carver now..... Where is Lexicon now.....Where is Kenwood now....Where is Sunsui now....Where is Luxman now..... Where is ........too many liao , but at least you still can get Anthem locally.  does anyone know Creative tech  have a 12" sub for HT selling only $900,are they even sell in SG ?They have be carry Anthem long enough during  pioneer time, till they take over Onkyo . The vol to export is much much more then local sales , we are not talk of 1/2 , 10/20 , 100/200 here. Same goes to some other brand they carry. just like Jap car make Honda does not sell airwave in Sg but PI does. market and marketing , if I spend 3ml to promoting a brand in SG and the same 3ml to promote a brand in Jakarta , which you think I will go for. There are a lot a lot more brand are distributed from SG to SEA why ,they not selling here or just a small vol will do........?
We are not second hand dealer , all items we sell as used are tradedin from our customer and we don't rate it condition but for the buyer to decide on it own.
From time to time we may sell off some New but open up used for rental/standby/loan items and to ensure they cant be sold as Brand new , we will dispose off the box.
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Online Boxerfan88

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Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?
« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2018, 13:17 »
Yeah,...limitations of a small market. With home sizes shrinking, soon many homes would not have the space to fit a full blown HT.


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Offline desray

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Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?
« Reply #30 on: November 01, 2018, 19:15 »
Yeah,...limitations of a small market. With home sizes shrinking, soon many homes would not have the space to fit a full blown HT.


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Yes that's right...that's also the reason why I hesitant to sell my 30yrs old 5-room HDB flat. I fear the only place I can place a "full blown HT setup" will be in the living hall...and that is going to be a real challenge!

Online Boxerfan88

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How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?
« Reply #31 on: November 01, 2018, 19:36 »
And I’m waiting for the day someone invite me over to checkout HT system installed at the balcony

If this already happened, I’d really like to visit and check it out...


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Offline YANG

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Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?
« Reply #32 on: November 01, 2018, 21:13 »
Invitation from CoolStoryBroCharlieBravo? Hard la... Later the maid hoot u with another round of questions like ...
What u work? Where u work? How much u earn from work...

Offline econav

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Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?
« Reply #33 on: November 01, 2018, 22:08 »
actually , someone here have all his gear house in the balcony to free out the limited living area.
We are not second hand dealer , all items we sell as used are tradedin from our customer and we don't rate it condition but for the buyer to decide on it own.
From time to time we may sell off some New but open up used for rental/standby/loan items and to ensure they cant be sold as Brand new , we will dispose off the box.
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http://www.xtremeplace.com/yabbse/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=2968
Service & collection : Block 1085 #03-36 Eunos Ave 7A  whatsapp 96387418 to arrange

Offline Doggie Howser

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Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?
« Reply #34 on: January 07, 2019, 10:49 »
Over complicated HT system



LMAO
End of Line - Derezzed

Offline desray

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Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?
« Reply #35 on: January 07, 2019, 12:58 »
Over complicated HT system



LMAO

Old clip liao. I recalled this clip is inside the Disney’s  WoW HT calibration disc.



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Offline DJQ

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Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?
« Reply #36 on: January 09, 2019, 13:34 »
Yes that's right...that's also the reason why I hesitant to sell my 30yrs old 5-room HDB flat. I fear the only place I can place a "full blown HT setup" will be in the living hall...and that is going to be a real challenge!

this time this day. thats what new owners can do. a few of my friends poor thing squeeze HT 5.1 with 80" screen into a study room.
ProJect Q.

Offline Amon86

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Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?
« Reply #37 on: January 09, 2019, 17:46 »
I setup my own home theatre using 7.1 using 6 x floodstanders one centre and sub in my parent's house I bet if I one day were to move out to my personal space the most I can go will be only 5.1 due to space constraint

Anyways do ground boxes works? My upcoming Nordost QB8 MKII had a ground port thinking should I get a ground box connect to it
« Last Edit: January 09, 2019, 17:55 by Amon86 »

Offline desray

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Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?
« Reply #38 on: January 09, 2019, 21:01 »
this time this day. thats what new owners can do. a few of my friends poor thing squeeze HT 5.1 with 80" screen into a study room.

This is what I will aptly described as "got money also no use" :P