Author Topic: Tactile Transducers  (Read 15399 times)

Offline Jag

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Re: Tactile Transducers
« Reply #30 on: March 25, 2017, 09:44 »
Doggie,
What is your take on the Crowsons? Top dog? Waste of $? 
Electronics : Denon 7200, MiniDSP Dirac 88A, Emotiva XPA-5 Gen2
ATMOS Audio : Martin Logan Ethos (L&R), ML Motif X(C), ML Motion 4 (14pcs surround spkrs)
LFE : Dual Rythmik FV25HP & Crowson Motion Actuator
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Offline desray

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Re: Tactile Transducers
« Reply #31 on: March 25, 2017, 10:12 »
wah lau, this is a SUPER poisonous thread. Cannot read it anymore. MODs pls delete it hahaha  ;D ;D

Actually this is NOT a novelty idea that just pop up of late. This little ingenious gadget was around for nearly a decade but not many members here wanted to try it out due to the hassles of getting a separate amp to drive it and not to mention the unsightly speaker cables connecting the shakers. But the level of immersion when watching those LFE-laden movies like Jurassic Park series really make you wanted more. Of course it has its fair share of issues, amongst which is the placement of the shakers and at what frequency you want it to vibrate. As a rule of thumb, most of us used bookshelf speakers with a X-over of 80hz or higher. This is good for subwoofer that didn't stick to your butt and make you feel the "bump" and thump in every explosion or FE rumbling scenes...this is more of a distraction than immersion. Another woe is that we use Y-splitter to split the LFE signal from the AVR to make the shakers "shake" and anything below 80hz will be directed to the subwoofer (.1 channel) as LFE. This is not good...hence you need another bu-pass filter (in the form of FMOD filter 50Hz to get a "more natural" tactile feel making it "unnatural".


This is something to consider. However, there are also instances where shakers such as the TES that shakes but with a more "natural" feel (meaning not directly to your butt). So placement of the shakers and the way it implements can have a large effect. I'm using the cheaper Aura Bass shakers and I the FMOD 50hz filter is a "must-have".

IMO, bass shakers is a "must-have" for an added level of immersion for even serious bass-heads. It can make a lousy movie "watchable" because of the great LFE effects.

« Last Edit: March 25, 2017, 10:21 by desray »

Offline Doggie Howser

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Re: Tactile Transducers
« Reply #32 on: March 25, 2017, 11:38 »
Doggie,
What is your take on the Crowsons? Top dog? Waste of $? 

Haven't put it on my home system yet :) still at work but just brought it out of storage to see if it still works. It's been 6 years since it was in storage.

From memory what I liked about it was for late night watching. I didn't need to crank up the volume to enjoy the sensation of low frequencies.
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Offline wechnivag

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Re: Tactile Transducers
« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2017, 11:58 »
I brought in 2 sets of Crowson Tech Motion Actuators for Ronildoq and myself. I went with the Crowson because I used the Auro bass shaker pros previously and it just didn't feel right.

Despite my lack of enthusiasm for the bass shaker, I still felt a TT is essential for good HT experience.

In short, the CTMA package is made up of 2 actuators and the latest CT amplifier with remote control. It's looks very solidly built. I went with the CTMA over the MBM because of the significantly higher WAF compared to an ugly box stuck behind my recliner.

Can't wait to try out the bass impressive movies (Lone survivor, oblivion, WOTW) once I have mine setup.
Hi Jag, can you elaborate more on how the aura bass shakers didn't work well when you tried it? Looking at the technology, the aura is quite different from the crowson. The aura is to be attached to the back or bottom of the couch, and vibrates the 'seat' of the couch directly. While the crowson mounts on 2 foots of the couch, and literally lifts the couch up and down to shake it.

As Desray said, the mounting location of the aura and the LPF used can make quite a big difference in the results of the aura?

Thanks!

Sent from my X9009 using Tapatalk


Offline Jag

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Re: Tactile Transducers
« Reply #34 on: March 25, 2017, 13:18 »
My gripe wasn't about placement of the bass shaker.  My gripe is about ULF vibrations.

The bass shakers resonants at ~40hz and gets weak quickly below that. The quick roll off was my biggest gripe and that's where i began feeling "unsatisfied". Turning up the volume isn't a good thing because the 30-40hz rumble overwhelmed the lesser vibrations in 20-30hz region and I bottomed out the bass shakers post DSP  equalisation. FMOD isn't going to help because the bass extension was already rolling off.

I installed 3 shakers under my IKEA Chair Poang. Still not enough ULF vibrations. Thus, I gave up on bass shakers altogether.
Electronics : Denon 7200, MiniDSP Dirac 88A, Emotiva XPA-5 Gen2
ATMOS Audio : Martin Logan Ethos (L&R), ML Motif X(C), ML Motion 4 (14pcs surround spkrs)
LFE : Dual Rythmik FV25HP & Crowson Motion Actuator
Video : Sony VPL-HW55ES, Stewart Screen Studiotek 1.3
Source : HTPC
Fully automated HT via Alexa, Z-wave and Logitech Harmony Remote Control

Offline ronildoq

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Re: Tactile Transducers
« Reply #35 on: March 25, 2017, 14:19 »
My gripe wasn't about placement of the bass shaker.  My gripe is about ULF vibrations.

The bass shakers resonants at ~40hz and gets weak quickly below that. The quick roll off was my biggest gripe and that's where i began feeling "unsatisfied". Turning up the volume isn't a good thing because the 30-40hz rumble overwhelmed the lesser vibrations in 20-30hz region and I bottomed out the bass shakers post DSP  equalisation. FMOD isn't going to help because the bass extension was already rolling off.

I installed 3 shakers under my IKEA Chair Poang. Still not enough ULF vibrations. Thus, I gave up on bass shakers altogether.

Now enter crowsons, it will change your perception on tactile transducers  all together...I can totally relate where u r coming from.... this is a different "sensation"

While conducting test to check out the limits of the crowsons, I noticed the amp was a bit hot when I had the D501 intensity cranked to 32 max, vol on oppo was only 50. to feel what this little fellas are doing at max intensity, then I realised it was better to up the vol on Oppo to 90 from 50, then gradually reduce the intensity on the d501 to 22-20, to find that perfect balance to supplement the subs... turns out after this adj, the d501 doesn't get hot and at the same time the sensation is about right, enough energy...sort of got increased headroom after this....

Desray is right, placement is key. I tried it directly under the metal bars, wasn't that effective, Put on a plywood and it was totally different...

That's how I did it, max out the D501 then slowly reduce until it feels right... with this toy... the tweaking is all about that tactile feel and preference supplementing the subs

Still looking for ways on how to up the 1-10hz by 3-5db, because this stuff can really dig deep without bottoming out at the ultra lows...

I'm thinking another way is to use the antimode then run the sub out channel for dual mono, so one of analog out has no eq, then apply a Low freq rising curve +6db with a hard knee from 65hz... the thought of re-eq all over puts me off...

How u planning to hook this up jag?

Offline ronildoq

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Re: Tactile Transducers
« Reply #36 on: March 25, 2017, 14:32 »
Here is the main key difference, the crowsons r not shakers but linear actuators. It is very different and FAQ section correctly describes this product

http://crowsontech.com/go/crowsontech/3341/en-US/DesktopDefault.aspx?Alias=crowsontech&TabID=3341&lang=en-us

Q:  Is the Crowson TES-100 different from a "shaker?"

A:  Yes, most definitely.
Many people, even some industry "experts" use the terms "shakers" and "tactile transducers" interchangeably, which is not technically correct.

A "shaker" can be a "tactile transducer," but not all "tactile transducers" are "shakers." Crowson TES-100 is a tactile transducer, but does not employ an "inertial-shaking" like any device which bolts onto the internal frame of a chair.

Crowson drivers are true Linear Actuators, not "shakers." They physically lift the seating (in the vertical plane), directly transferring motion at the points that were designed to bear the weight of the furniture.

The result is an incredibly realistic ("fast") motion rather than what can be a distracting, "one-note rumble" (shakers).

Crowson patented technology, Linear-Direct-Drive (LDD TM), delivers an audiophile-grade motion, with a linear, flat frequency response that exceeds even the finest loudspeakers (though it is not designed as a subwoofer replacement).

Imagine attempting to use a siren as a full-range home theater loudspeaker. Sirens are very efficient at a narrow band of frequencies, but terribly inefficient and inaccurate at other frequencies.

Inertial "shakers" can add an interesting, vigorous effect for similarly narrow frequency ranges (different "shakers" are optimized for different narrow frequency ranges), but are severely limited in their overall accuracy due to similar technical constraints.
Crowson TES-100 Linear Actuators are not simple "shakers" and should not be refered to as such.

Offline Doggie Howser

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Re: Tactile Transducers
« Reply #37 on: March 25, 2017, 16:02 »
Just installed it at home. Will test it out later tonight.
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Offline wizardofoz

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Re: Tactile Transducers
« Reply #38 on: March 25, 2017, 22:30 »
I use my shakers via a Rod Elliott 10 band eq from 20-80hz I think with most of it dialed out above 35hz iirc
« Last Edit: March 26, 2017, 10:01 by wizardofoz »
I have a pile of stuff that pushes out squiggly waveforms from smaller squiggly waveforms that sometimes come from 1's and 0's.
It's wonderful to behold as long as you don't let the magic smoke out.

Life is short! Enjoy the music while it plays, when it stops, there might be a chair for you...or  maybe not.

Offline wechnivag

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Re: Tactile Transducers
« Reply #39 on: March 25, 2017, 22:41 »
My gripe wasn't about placement of the bass shaker.  My gripe is about ULF vibrations.

The bass shakers resonants at ~40hz and gets weak quickly below that. The quick roll off was my biggest gripe and that's where i began feeling "unsatisfied". Turning up the volume isn't a good thing because the 30-40hz rumble overwhelmed the lesser vibrations in 20-30hz region and I bottomed out the bass shakers post DSP  equalisation. FMOD isn't going to help because the bass extension was already rolling off.

I installed 3 shakers under my IKEA Chair Poang. Still not enough ULF vibrations. Thus, I gave up on bass shakers altogether.
Hi Jag, I see. I wonder if the ~40hz resonant frequency may be significantly affected by the location(stiffness ) of the mounting point. If you think about it, the aura on the bottom of the poang chair, is forming a resonant mass-spring system between the mass and stiffness of the chair+occupant, and the mass of the aura shaker. As it is not physically grounded unlike the crowson, it is not able to deliver high output in the ULF range, which probably requires much more counter mass on the body of the shaker, to react against the mass of the chair+occupant.

Thanks for helping me understand the difference between the aura and the crowson. Also Ronildoq kindly pointed out that the crowson is a linear actuator.

Cheers!

Sent from my X9009 using Tapatalk


Offline Doggie Howser

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Re: Tactile Transducers
« Reply #40 on: March 25, 2017, 22:59 »
I didn't really play an action movie tonight. Watched Hidden Figures the only rumbles were during the rocket take off scenes.

But I did put in John Wick. During the first seconds of the movie, the SUV hit the warehouse wall and DOOF. Felt like someone kicked me in the back :)

Handy to have around when I have the sub tuned down.

I had to turn on dual sub and then had to dial up the sub level cos the AVP halved the sub level when I said I had 2 subs
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Offline Jag

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Re: Tactile Transducers
« Reply #41 on: March 26, 2017, 07:07 »
Hi Jag, I see. I wonder if the ~40hz resonant frequency may be significantly affected by the location(stiffness ) of the mounting point. If you think about it, the aura on the bottom of the poang chair, is forming a resonant mass-spring system between the mass and stiffness of the chair+occupant, and the mass of the aura shaker. As it is not physically grounded unlike the crowson, it is not able to deliver high output in the ULF range, which probably requires much more counter mass on the body of the shaker, to react against the mass of the chair+occupant.

Thanks for helping me understand the difference between the aura and the crowson. Also Ronildoq kindly pointed out that the crowson is a linear actuator.

Cheers!

Sent from my X9009 using Tapatalk



There have been many documented posts, articles about the 40hz resonance in AVS as well as in this website.

http://www.bassshakers.com/compare-bass-shakers/#.WNbvC5H0qhA

I have attempted to change the resonance of this mass spring combi by adding weights and varying the distance of the weights from the fulcrum of the chair, but I gave up since. Too difficult to shift the resonance from 40hz down to 20hz.

10yrs passed since I gave up. Lately, movies in this decade have began using the ULF region more than before. Today's ULF extension into single digit freq have far exceeded the operating range of the Aura bass shaker pros.

That said, Aura BSPs are a great way to try out TTs. I do recommend TTs but just not the Aura BSP. ...


Between buttkicker and CT, I wonder if anyone has used the buttkicker?
« Last Edit: March 26, 2017, 07:23 by Jag »
Electronics : Denon 7200, MiniDSP Dirac 88A, Emotiva XPA-5 Gen2
ATMOS Audio : Martin Logan Ethos (L&R), ML Motif X(C), ML Motion 4 (14pcs surround spkrs)
LFE : Dual Rythmik FV25HP & Crowson Motion Actuator
Video : Sony VPL-HW55ES, Stewart Screen Studiotek 1.3
Source : HTPC
Fully automated HT via Alexa, Z-wave and Logitech Harmony Remote Control

Offline wechnivag

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Re: Tactile Transducers
« Reply #42 on: March 26, 2017, 10:14 »
There have been many documented posts, articles about the 40hz resonance in AVS as well as in this website.

http://www.bassshakers.com/compare-bass-shakers/#.WNbvC5H0qhA

I have attempted to change the resonance of this mass spring combi by adding weights and varying the distance of the weights from the fulcrum of the chair, but I gave up since. Too difficult to shift the resonance from 40hz down to 20hz.

10yrs passed since I gave up. Lately, movies in this decade have began using the ULF region more than before. Today's ULF extension into single digit freq have far exceeded the operating range of the Aura bass shaker pros.

That said, Aura BSPs are a great way to try out TTs. I do recommend TTs but just not the Aura BSP. ...


Between buttkicker and CT, I wonder if anyone has used the buttkicker?
How about mounting the aura like the crowson, bracing the back of the transducer against the floor or wall, so it can shake with a reaction force instead of just inertial force. And try to EQ our the 40hz peak? Probably run out of force or bottom the aura...

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Offline ronildoq

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Re: Tactile Transducers
« Reply #43 on: March 26, 2017, 10:26 »
Speaking about movies, below is the compilation of movies up to Dec 2015 that run into the single digit...... Only a few im familiar with, Finding Nemo (1.18 when darla hits aquarium glass) , Dawn of Dinosaurs (Pterosaur flying scenes), Awakening Underworld (huge lycan entering cave moment), Oblivion (String break and alot of other scenes).... The movie "Gravity" has extension down to 18hz max only... So this is only good for me when calibrating the crowsons (making sure it is natural and supplements the subs) since im familiar with the movie, but probably not good for demo material, as it cannot demonstrate to you the best in the crowsons. The best is in the movies with Single Digit, Pixels, 49th Min !! Pixels Atmos Disc is a Must Have! This one goes down to 1hz...... This infrasonic can fry your subs if not careful when calibrating the subs or if the crowsons do not have a good amp to drive it.....But i reckon horror movies like "the conjuring" would be very very good as these infrasonic freq creates a kind of "feeling" that cannot be replicated by my subs.... Still compiling the time stamp and scenes, but still not sure how to cut out those Dolby Atmos specific scenes from the movie.. the others are good...

So the issue on how much rumble, how much thumping, how much slamming, how much pounding, how deep infrasonic is all in the numbers and the movie as with the data provided. a lot of ultra infrasonic material these days... gone were the days when we only had dts and dolby, now we have object based ATMOS!




Offline ronildoq

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Re: Tactile Transducers
« Reply #44 on: March 26, 2017, 10:28 »
Bro Wech pointed out Ratatouile scene when he visited me previously, but i dont have that animation. Apparently that one goes down to 1hz as well. Need to go find that animation....