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AV Galaxy => Planet Home Theater => Topic started by: petetherock on May 06, 2009, 11:17

Title: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments
Post by: petetherock on May 06, 2009, 11:17
Just compiling all the HDMI info into a single easily searched thread.

http://www.audioholics.com/education/display-formats-technology/understanding-difference-hdmi-versions (http://www.audioholics.com/education/display-formats-technology/understanding-difference-hdmi-versions)
 
HDMI has changed versions so many times it's been hard to keep up for most people. We've talked about the versions as part of other articles and documents, but it seemed fitting that we'd formulate and maintain a definitive document outlining the changes in a straightforward and easy-to-digest manner for all concerned.
Hopefully this article helps you understand the format differences and aids in your ability to discern what features are important to you as you shop for HDMI-equipped products.

HDMI 1.0


Release date: December 2002

Specs:
Abstract: The original HDMI v1.0 spec was and remains sufficient for most purposes. The reason is that it is a solid backwards-compatible format that can , through PCM audio handle all of the high definition audio formats present today. The key is having a player that can decode these native HD audio formats to uncompressed PCM. DSD and DVD-audio cannot be natively sent over HDMI 1.0. What HDMI 1.0 fails to do, is account for additional bandwidth provided by Deep Color (10- 12 and 16-bit color depths). It also does not support the new xvYCC color space.
Practical Issues and tips: Most CableTV set-top boxes use HDMI 1.0. The maximum output for this spec is 1080p at 60Hz with 8-bit color depth. Regardless of any display of higher version of HDMI you may have, the source will always limit the maximum bit-depth potential. An HDMI 1.0 device can still pull 8 channels of uncompressed PCM audio and as is perfectly fine for most users.

HDMI 1.1


Release date: May 2004

Specs:
Abstract: HDMI 1.1 simply added the ability for the system to transmit DVD-Audio signal over the cbale form the player to the receiving device. If both devices are rated to v1.1 then a DVD-Audio signal can be sent and received. Please note that by "DVD-Audio" we mean the high resolution audio format, not the audio present on a typical DVD disc.
Practical Issues and tips: HDMI 1.1 is very common and was the first spec to hit the mass market apart from CableTV set-top boxes. Many AV receivers came out with this spec and are fine for handling DVD-Audio and uncompressed PCM audio.

HDMI 1.2

Release date: August 2005
Specs:

Abstract: HDMI 1.2 was the biggest jump since the introduction of HDMI. It really brought the PC market into focus and was developed and announced so as to compete better with the emerging VESA DisplayPort standard. For those still clinging to their universal DVD players, HDMI v1.2 finally delivered the promise of a true one-cable solution for all current high-definition audio sources.
Practical Issues and tips: If you want to utilize a fully native universal DVD player without converting the SACD to PCM then HDMI 1.2 is required. We've found that if the player does a good job at conversion, however, v1.2 isn't always that important.
HDMI 1.2a

Release date: December 2005

Specs:
Abstract: This incremental change clarified one of the earlier promises of HDMI, Consumer Electronic Control - a feature that promised "smart" interoperability between components. Unfortunately, this wasn't exactly standardized across the board and, as a result, nearly all manufacturers products only interface within their own brands. Of all things, this is the most disappointing failure of HDMI to-date.
Practical Issues and tips: This is a common format for manufacturers using CEC. There is no practical reason to prefer 1.2a over 1.2. If you don't intend to use the native DSD signal from an SACD player via HDMI, v1.1 is just as good as 1.2 or 1.2a.

HDMI 1.3


Release date: June 2006
Specs:

Abstract: To be plain, this update was a complete disaster. First of all, nobody asked for HDMI 1.3, except perhaps the companies behind the new high definition audio formats. Of course TrueHD and DTS-HD, the lossless audio codec formats used on HD DVDs and Blu-ray Discs could be decoded into uncompressed audio by the players. This makes 1.3 irrelevant for audio. What made HDMI 1.3 such as disaster was the increased bandwidth requirements - which hit an already suffering cable market with new requirements for digital signal transmission. Before HDMI 1.3, it was almost impossible to get a non-active copper HDMI cable to pass 1080p at distances greater than 50 feet. After HDMI 1.3, with the addition of Deep Color, that distance shrank to less than 20 feet, causing industry-wide failures on installed cabling systems.

Expensive active solutions started coming on-board to alleviate some of the problems within several months but even today there is a large amount of consumer confusion regarding cable certification and how far a signal will travel over copper cables. The spec also mandated that HDMI 1.3-compliant displays (sinks) which took advantage of high frequency content (Deep Color) must implement built-in cable equalization to help compensate for cable losses through copper cables. Thanks to several companies dedicated to certifying their products for specific distances, this issue is slowly becoming more manageable. The first product on the market with HDMI 1.3 was the PlayStation 3 gaming console.
Practical Issues and tips: HDMI 1.3 is a requirement for Deep Color support or use of the new xvYCC expanded color space. If high definition audio is important to you, you still may not need v1.3 if your player can decode the native HD audio formats into uncompressed PCM audio. This uncompressed audio, up to 8 channels, can be sent over HDMI 1.0.Typically, 24p support coincides with v1.3, however this is nothing more than coincidence of when both format and spec came into popularity.


HDMI 1.3a

Release date: November 2006

Specs:
Abstract: An incremental change, v1.3a is mostly an adjustment for manufacturers utilizing CEC features as well as those integrating the new Type C connector (seen only in smaller form factor products and quite rare to-date).
Practical Issues and tips: There is no consumer-focused practical difference between HDMI v1.3a and v1.3.
Title: Re: HDMI 1.4
Post by: petetherock on May 06, 2009, 11:18
http://www.hdmi.org/press/press_release.aspx?prid=93

Quote
Networking - Consolidation of HD video, HD audio and now high speed data with the addition of Ethernet in the HDMI cable.

Audio Return Channel - Elimination of a S/PDIF cable by allowing a TV to send audio streams upstream to an A/V receiver for processing and playback over the HDMI cable

Performance - 4kx2k and 3D are high performance features to be met by increasing the upper limit of the HDMI link

HD in your Car - New connector specification for the auto industry as worlds’ largest auto makers move to digital HD video and audio for 21st century cars with HDMI

Smaller connector - New smaller 19-pin connector

What does it mean for you? We don't know quite yet all the implications. But it sounds like your HDMI cable just got a whole lot more important.


Don't run out and change your amp yet!
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: Doggie Howser on May 06, 2009, 11:23
Filed under "If it ain't broke..."

I've seen amazing things done with HDMI extenders using Cat6E cables to extend the HDMI signals...

Also believe that some AVRs use RJ45 to transmit multichannel high definition audio..

Instead of coming up with HDMI, they should have stuck with good old RJ45. Looks like there's a lot of bandwidth potential in the old girl. Plus no issues with long runs. And slim/easy to tuck away.



Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: landis on May 06, 2009, 11:48
has anybody tried these from monoprice? for only us$20 wonder if it works as advertised

(http://images.monoprice.com/productlargeimages/54031.jpg)

(http://images.monoprice.com/productlargeimages/54032.jpg)

Title: More info on HDMI
Post by: petetherock on May 12, 2009, 11:19
Courtesy of this website:


http://hometheatermag.printthis.clickability.com/pt/cpt?action=cpt&title=Home+Theater%3A+HDMI+101&expire=&urlID=34759826&fb=Y&url=http%3A%2F%2Fhometheatermag.com%2Fhookmeup%2Fhdmi_101%2Findex.html&partnerID=3830


Quote
Hook Me Up
HDMI 101
By Joshua Zyber   •   March, 2009
How important is HDMI 1.3 anyway?
The HDMI standard was developed with noble intentions. Most people in the home theater hobby know the hazards of cable clutter. When you have a lot of equipment connected this way and that by separate audio and video cables, you wind up with a tangled mess of wires behind your equipment rack or entertainment center. The problem is compounded by component video (three cables just for picture) and multichannel analog audio (six to eight more cables!). Now factor in a DVR, a couple of DVD players, a Blu-ray player, a video processor, and an A/V receiver all interconnected in one theater room. If you want to add or remove any piece of equipment, you’ll have to squat behind the rack with a flashlight and trying to trace each cable from end to end. Which unit did this blue one come from? If I plug that red cable into here, will I get my picture back, or will my speakers start blaring obnoxious noises?



HDMI was supposed to help with all that. One cable carries both video and audio. Better yet, it carries high-definition video and high- resolution multichannel audio, plus it has all the latest copy-protection protocols that the Hollywood studios demand. In theory, it’s the perfect connection standard for Blu-ray. One HDMI cable out from the Blu-ray player to an A/V receiver, and another HDMI cable out from the receiver to an HDTV should be all it takes to get stunning 1080p picture and lossless audio, all fully encrypted with a minimum of cable clutter. So why are there so many different versions of HDMI? And which ones do you need to be concerned with?



HDMI is an evolving standard that first came to market before all of its features were finalized. The original HDMI version 1.0 established the basic parameters for transmitting high- definition video and uncompressed audio. This was followed by several revisions that added, among other features, support for the DVD-Audio format and some PC applications. For home theater purposes, any HDMI connection type from 1.0 to 1.2a will transmit 1080p picture and multichannel PCM sound equally well. However, at the very least, they will not carry the native digital bitstreams for the advanced Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD Master Audio lossless audio formats.

The most significant revision to the HDMI spec came with version 1.3, which added support for a few new features that are useful for home theater applications. (Later versions such as 1.3a, 1.3b, and 1.3c add more remote control options and other improvements to their functionality, but they add nothing directly related to additional core audio or video.) In order to benefit from these new features, both ends of the signal chain—as well as any switches, splitters, or other intermediary devices—must be compliant with HDMI 1.3. As a result, HDMI 1.3 has become a marketing tool for many manufacturers to encourage consumers to upgrade their Blu-ray players, A/V receivers, and even all of their cables. You wouldn’t want to be noncompliant with all of the latest features, would you? Of course, this begs the question: Does a Blu-ray viewer really need HDMI 1.3 to get the most out of the format? The answer is a resounding maybe. To delve a little deeper, let’s take a look at what HDMI 1.3 offers that you can’t get in previous versions.



On the video side of things, HDMI 1.3 increases signal bandwidth and allows for the transmission of more color detail. Only HDMI 1.3+ can carry the Deep Color or x.v.YCC formats that promise billions of possible colors, smoother color gradients, and the elimination of banding artifacts. (Naturally, these will only work if both the source and the display are compatible.) That certainly sounds great, but there’s just one problem. The Blu-ray spec doesn’t support either Deep Color or x.v.YCC. Even if a Blu-ray player claims compatibility with these formats (and several do), no Blu-ray Discs are actually encoded with an extended color gamut. Those billions of new colors don’t exist in the Blu-ray source. Any standard HDMI connection can transmit the full video quality that’s available on a Blu-ray Disc.




Does that make HDMI 1.3 irrelevant for video? Not necessarily. At present, a few models of HD camcorders will record content with Deep Color or x.v.YCC. There has also been speculation that some video games may be encoded with one or the other in the future. Although Blu-ray Discs don’t contain the expanded color detail, some Blu-ray player models (such as the recent Pioneer BDP-51FD) may be able to interpolate those extra colors internally, which essentially upconverts the color signal. To take advantage of that, you’ll need HDMI 1.3 and a Deep Color–capable display. On the other hand, some displays may be able to perform that interpolation themselves, negating the need for the Blu-ray player to do it. In the end, there may be some cases where HDMI 1.3 is useful, but it is not strictly necessary for video.


The audio situation is more complicated. Blu-ray Discs can contain movie soundtracks in several possible formats. Regular DTS or Dolby Digital 5.1 work the same as they did on DVD. An S/PDIF cable or any version of HDMI can transmit those lossy codecs without issue. As I mentioned earlier, uncompressed multichannel PCM will also work just fine with any HDMI connection. (S/PDIF doesn’t have enough band- width for that.) Where things get tricky is the usage of the newer audio formats: Dolby Digital Plus, DTS- HD High Resolution Audio, Dolby TrueHD, and DTS-HD Master Audio. Dolby Digital Plus and DTS-HD High Resolution Audio are rarely used on Blu-ray these days, but Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio are very common. All four of these new audio formats have the same transmission limitations. In order to hear the full high-resolution soundtrack, your Blu-ray player must either decode the format internally or transmit its native bitstream to an A/V receiver or surround processor.

Players that decode the advanced audio codecs convert the audio to PCM. The decoded PCM should result in no loss of quality, and it can be output over any HDMI connection. (Some player models may also offer multichannel analog outputs.) In this case, HDMI 1.3 is not needed. Unfortunately, not all Blu-ray players are built with the ability to decode those high- resolution formats in full quality. Some Blu-ray players can only decode standard DTS or Dolby Digital 5.1. And a number of early players decode Dolby TrueHD but not DTS-HD Master Audio. In either case, you’ll need to transmit the codec’s native bitstream and let your A/V receiver or surround processor do the decoding. This will require HDMI 1.3 on both the Blu-ray player and the receiver or surround processor.



Either decoding to multichannel PCM or passing the native bitstream will give you high-quality lossless sound. The choice between letting the Blu-ray player decode the audio or transmitting the native bitstream will depend on the specifics of your equip- ment. For example, the Sony PlayStation 3 offers no bitstream option for the advanced audio formats, but it will decode them internally to PCM. On the other hand, the Panasonic DMP- BD30 will not decode Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD Master Audio itself but can transmit their native bitstreams. Secondary audio from commentaries, Bonus View, and BD-Live content complicates this decision even further, as the only way to seamlessly mix disc and secondary audio is to let the player handle the decoding.

Older A/V receivers and surround processors may include HDMI inputs that can accept multichannel PCM but not the newer formats. And some A/V receivers and processors—even a few current models—have HDMI inputs that will not handle any type of audio at all over HDMI. Their HDMI inputs are strictly video. If yours is one of these, the only way you’ll be able to listen to the new high-resolution audio formats is from the player’s multichannel audio outputs to the multichannel analog inputs on your A/V receiver or surround processor. In either of these situations, the player must be able to perform the decoding. Every system will have its own particular needs.

For both video and audio, HDMI 1.3 is useful in some home theater applications, but it’s not necessarily required. If you buy new equipment today, the presence of HDMI 1.3 will help with future-proofing if nothing else. However, with a bit of care, it’s still possible to obtain the highest-quality video and audio available from Blu-ray even with older versions of HDMI.
Title: Re: HDMI length
Post by: petetherock on May 17, 2009, 07:50
The thereotical limit for a HDMI cable is 15m before requiring boosting. So avoid long runs above this.

Also consider a large gauge cable for such long runs and make sure it does not dangle its full weight from the connection or in the long run (pardon the pun) it may slip out.
Title: Where can we buy HDMI cables
Post by: petetherock on May 17, 2009, 07:57
Overseas:

Via Vpost or the many MOs conducted here, you can consider Monoprice, which is very popular here.

The Blue Jean cable company is another source.

Playasia.com also sells them

Locally:

Hean Lee Radio in Jln Besar Plaza is reasonably priced.

Buy according to the price of your other equipment, the difference is less dramatic than analogue cables but there is a difference.

Another discussion:
http://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/showthread.php?t=1900362

Title: Useful links
Post by: petetherock on May 17, 2009, 19:16
HDMI shootout between expensive and cheapo:

http://www.xtremeplace.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=52873.0

HDMI switchers:

http://www.xtremeplace.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=51054.0

HDMI differences:

http://www.xtremeplace.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=51602.0

http://www.xtremeplace.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=57465.0

Title: Does gold-plating matter?
Post by: petetherock on May 26, 2009, 16:06


The reply on what makes a good cable from HDMI themselves:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9596169#post9596169

Quote
All HDMI cables are required to meet the HDMI spec- no exceptions. However, it is difficult to closely monitor every HDMI cable due to the large number of cable manufacturers and products coming out.

Some general guidelines we recommend:
-look for the HDMI logo, and this tends to be used by manufacturers that clearly understand that the logo can only be used for products that have been compliance tested.
-look for a SimplayHD logo, which is a separately run testing service that checks cables to the highest HDMI standard called a Category 2 cable (i.e. 1080p tested).

If we find devices which do not meet the spec and/or cause failures in interoperability, we do our best to take actions to address it, and we welcome feedback from consumers to report on any failures they have seen from specific devices.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: petetherock on June 15, 2009, 08:47
Hmmm... interesting fracas over a cable, but thats hi fi for you, it can be highly emotive...

But many have commented, esp in Smaller displays and in real life modest HT setups, the differents between a fancy cable and a monoprice cable is not much.

So I have stuck with them, get the 22 gauges ones with gold plate, keep the length under 15m and you are fine!
HDMI shootout between expensive and cheapo:

http://www.xtremeplace.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=52873.0

HDMI switchers:

http://www.xtremeplace.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=51054.0

HDMI differences:

http://www.xtremeplace.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=51602.0

http://www.xtremeplace.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=57465.0


Title: HDMI locking cable
Post by: petetherock on July 21, 2009, 01:47
http://www.lockinghdmi.com/

Click on the picture for an animation...

http://www.ottovonmo.com/news.php?cat=news&story=15

Quote
Syracuse, NY April 23, 2008- Alas, the oft heard "HDMI is not a locking connector! ... It is a self-ejecting technology!" Well, no more. What was once the Achilles heel of a desirable workflow is now the secure backbone. Ottovonmo Productions introduced PPC's patented Locking HDMI cable to the production industry at NAB 2008. Able to lock into any HDMI connector, this new locking HDMI cable solves a myriad of problems in the industry.

The struggle for ever better video quality has become easier with each passing NAB show. We are now seeing dramatic opportunities for high quality footage at affordable price tags and manageable file sizes. We're seeing stand-alone, on-camera recorders that are giving us better than HDCAM quality footage, captured with prosumer and consumer hardware.

HDMI especially has opened new doors to the video community for getting higher quality footage, as we are now able to send out an uncompressed 4:2:2 color sampled picture to be recorded to a codec of our choice, just as HD-SDI can, but without the hefty price tag. The one major problem is that there has been no true locking HDMI cables. So what value does HDMI offer to our cameras and recorders if our simple HDMI cable continuously falls out? The answer is "None"; it is worthless. Thus the complaint of many in the production community that HDMI is unprofessional and untrustworthy for professional use. It simply disallows content producers to use this technology confidently.

Adam Wilt, writer and technical reviewer for Pro Video Coalition, had this to say about PPC's new locking HDMI cable: "I was unable to apply sufficient pull ... for fear of damaging the cable or the equipment it was plugged into; it didn't let go!... Yet a simple squeeze on the raised release button let me pull the cable out when I wanted to... Verdict: Great idea, well implemented."
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: petetherock on August 20, 2009, 18:44
A good pdf file on what HDMI is:
http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=7566
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: petetherock on November 09, 2009, 08:39
Bringing this up to answer a question on where to buy cables...

There are also many people selling monoprice cables.

I usually grab a few and keep them spare. They have not given me any trouble at all.
Overseas:

Via Vpost or the many MOs conducted here, you can consider Monoprice, which is very popular here.

The Blue Jean cable company is another source.

Playasia.com also sells them

Locally:

Hean Lee Radio in Jln Besar Plaza is reasonably priced.

Buy according to the price of your other equipment, the difference is less dramatic than analogue cables but there is a difference.

Another discussion:
http://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/showthread.php?t=1900362


Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: Fanzhen on November 14, 2009, 14:54
(http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii55/fanzhen/swivel.gif)

Any advantages of using this type of hdmi cable?
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: cstanxpl on November 14, 2009, 15:37
Yes, when your TV is very near to the back wall, and the HDMI connection must be connected horizontally.

The swivel will come in handy.

(http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii55/fanzhen/swivel.gif)

Any advantages of using this type of hdmi cable?
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: Fanzhen on November 14, 2009, 16:52
May I know whether this swivel head hdmi cable available in Singapore?
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: n3wk1d on November 14, 2009, 17:30
Maybe a swivel connector from Monoprice would do the job ?
Part No.5133
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10419&cs_id=1041907&p_id=5133&seq=1&format=1#largeimage
(http://images.monoprice.com/productlargeimages/51334.jpg)


Or a port saver can do the job too..
Part no.3733
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10419&cs_id=1041907&p_id=3733&seq=1&format=1#largeimage
(http://images.monoprice.com/productlargeimages/37331.jpg)
Title: RMore HDMI confusion.... no more versions...
Post by: petetherock on November 24, 2009, 20:53
(http://www.highdefdigest.com/images/post/11/11453/original.jpeg)


http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/High-Def_Retailing/Industry_Trends/HDMI/HDMI_Drops_Version_Numbers_–_Adds_1080i_Only_Cables/3809


Quote
Starting with what we now call HDMI 1.4, manufacturers will have to drop the version numbers from their products and adopt a new naming system.

On the surface it seems like a pretty solid idea. Dropping the number system and replacing it with an easy to understand naming system seems like a nice way to let those with less technical minds get a grasp on what these cables are doing. The new HDMI naming scheme seems to take it a bit too far.


 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 

Five different versions of HDMI 1.4 will be available initially. Starting things off, HDMI Standard and HDMI Standard with Ethernet are the base versions of the new HDMI cables. They’re self explanatory, (if lengthy to type). HDMI Standard Automotive is the third, marking the last of the HDMI Standard series. The final two cable types are HDMI High Speed and HDMI High Speed with Ethernet.

The need to add a second tier of cables to the lineup is a bit baffling, and the technical difference between Standard and High Speed HDMI cables is equally strange.

HDMI Standard cables, according to the HDMI Licensing LLC, are designed and tested to transmit 720p and 1080i. The website states the reason being that “the HD resolutions that are commonly associated with cable and satellite television, digital broadcast HD, and upscaling DVD players.”

High Speed HDMI cables on the other hand, are “designed and tested to handle video resolutions of 1080p and beyond, including advanced display technologies such as 4K, 3D, and Deep Color.” Both offer the same Ethernet speeds – a full duplex 100 Mb/sec.

Since 1080p resolution capability is not included in the lower end cables, customers who purchase new HDTVs, Blu-ray players, and game consoles will almost certainly need to purchase the High Speed cables. Already excessive cable prices from many manufacturers can be expected to jump for the new standard.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: petetherock on December 21, 2009, 10:23
Does HDMI carry audio & video?

Yes


Will device XXX sync well with device YYY?

The nature of HDMI is still unpredictable - MOST will, but it is not a certainty. In time updates to the firmware will resolve it, but some bugs still exist.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: ikanyubodoh on December 21, 2009, 10:29
Does HDMI carry audio & video?

Yes


Will device XXX sync well with device YYY?

The nature of HDMI is still unpredictable - MOST will, but it is not a certainty. In time updates to the firmware will resolve it, but some bugs still exist.

Thanks ;)
Title: HDMI/DVI HDCP Handshake Problems & How to Avoid Them
Post by: petetherock on January 08, 2010, 23:33
A good link to why it happens:

HDMI/DVI HDCP Handshake Problems & How to Avoid Them
A simple word (actually a long series of words) -high-definition content protection (HDCP) system

http://cn.hdmi.org/pdf/whitepaper/AvoidingHandshakeProblems.pdf

Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: cstanxpl on January 10, 2010, 12:49
van den Hul HDMI flat compliant with HDMI 1.4 up to 10m

http://www.vandenhul.com/p_B31AK.aspx

Used to be compliant to HDMI 1.3 up to 12.5m.

Edit : up to 12.5m.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: asianboy on January 10, 2010, 12:59
van den Hul HDMI flat complaint with HDMI 1.4 up to 10m

http://www.vandenhul.com/p_B31AK.aspx

Used to be complaint to HDMI 1.3 up to 15m.

you meant compliant right?
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: cstanxpl on January 10, 2010, 13:03
you meant compliant right?

 ;D Paisei

Yes, compliant.  :-[

Will edit it.

I think some other HDMI 1.3 compliant cables may be 1.4 compliant in shorter length too.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: asianboy on January 10, 2010, 13:39
lucky. We may not need to buy new hdmi cables just to use ver 1.4 again. Anyway the electronic manufactures are getting greedier and greedier. Cant give consumers a break for three or four years but want us to change our equipment every year.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: n3wk1d on January 10, 2010, 17:25
You can't judge a cable complaint notes coming from the marketing side.

A 1.3 or 1.4 compliant cables doesn't really meant they are true 1080p at that type of distance.
A statement coming from a manufacturer stated that
"There are no manufacturer at current moment (2009) are holding and tested cable with Cat.2 certified at 40ft.(without amplifier/booster)."

So, don't just look at the version. It's really very confusing as of now.
A Ver1.3 cable might not really pass Cat.2, it might only tested and certified at Cat.1. In which (742.5Mbps) of bandwidth is tested. Or 720p/1080i only.
A Cat. 2 certified are tested with 340MHz or with a 1080p signal and passed.

As replied from the manufacturer, even the Belden Bonded pairs are not Cat.2 certified at 40'. They are tested only with "specific" device and certain output to 1080p certified devices. These are the work done by the marketing dept., stating they can run 100ft on 1080p devices.

On real world or back in the test bench, are they really 1080p ?

As off now, Jan 2010. There are no specific test set out by the CTS (Compliance Test Specification) on the 1.4 version or approved test set.

That's what I understand from the manufacturer on the HDMI 1.4 and 1.3.

I might be wrong though.  :P All the information I got is a reply from the manufacturer.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: Knight_Rider on January 10, 2010, 19:28
They just change the stickers like the 1.3 to 1.3a. What do you think they do with the old cables? Throw them away?  :P
Title: hdmi switching vs. pass through
Post by: petetherock on January 15, 2010, 15:35
HDMI pass through means that audio can't be read off the hdmi so you have to run a TOSLINK or coax audio digital signal to the receiver, which means you can't get high-resolution audio.

Switching allows you to get audio and video off the single HDMI cable.

Title: o I Really Need HDMI 1.4 to Watch 3D HDTV and Blu-ray 3D?
Post by: petetherock on January 18, 2010, 11:37
http://www.bigpicturebigsound.com/CES-Do-I-Really-Need-HDMI-1-4-to-Watch-3D-HDTV.shtml

Good article on how the whole HDMI plays out with 3D TV.

It maybe a while before or if this becomes mainstream...
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: petetherock on February 08, 2010, 11:22
As mentioned here, version 1.4 will be needed for 3D tv.

But the standard and the whole development cycle is still in progress.
Whilst Onkyo has annouced new amps with HDMI 1.4, the amount of 3D material out there does not currently justify the outlay.

But this is obviously a push by the sellers / makers to get revenue. If we do not upgrade they won't make any money.

It just like 5.1 vs 7.1 channels, we do not NEED it and there are still less than 20% of movies with 7.1.

But it may mean the entire batch of cables you own need to be changed to go 1.4.

Alternatively, we can patch seperate cables from a BR player with 2 outputs - one to the TV and another to the amp. That allows you to retain the 1.3 chain.

http://www.bigpicturebigsound.com/CES-Do-I-Really-Need-HDMI-1-4-to-Watch-3D-HDTV.shtml

Good article on how the whole HDMI plays out with 3D TV.

It maybe a while before or if this becomes mainstream...
Title: HDMI 1.4 3D Specifications Announced
Post by: petetherock on February 09, 2010, 07:29
The specs:

http://www.hdmi.org/download/2010_02_02_3DExtraction_HDMI_Spec1.4_Final.pdf

Quote


 
The good news? We may have avoided a 3D format war.

While most HDMI 1.4 info is restricted only to those making HDMI 1.4 products, the 3D specifications have been released to the general public. It’s a dull read and it’s highly technical, but it’s available nonetheless.


 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  

The gist of it all though, is that it’s unlikely we’ll have that 3D format war. The whole point of the release of the 3D specification is so that even companies that aren’t yet on board with HDMI 1.4 can make their gear compatible.

“The HDMI Consortium recognizes the importance of standardized 3D formats for movies, gaming and broadcast content and the need for non-adopter companies and organizations to have access,” said Steve Venuti, president of HDMI Licensing. “HDMI is ready to support this major market development.”

So it looks like we’ll be sticking with 120Hz televisions, active shutter glasses and, if you want your 3D in 1080p, HDMI 1.4.
Title: HDMI Spec Ver. 1.4a Released: Specifies Mandatory 3D Formats for Broadcast‏
Post by: cstanxpl on March 05, 2010, 14:47
http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/specification.aspx

On Thursday, March 4, 2010, HDMI Licensing, LLC, on behalf of the HDMI Founders, released the HDMI Specification Version 1.4a, featuring key enhancements for 3D applications including the addition of mandatory 3D formats for broadcast content as well as the addition of the 3D format referred to as Top-and-Bottom.

The HDMI Specification Ver.1.4a and the Compliance Test Specification Ver.1.4a (CTS 1.4a) are now available for download only by HDMI Adopters.

However, the updated 3D portion of the HDMI Specification Version 1.4a is available for public download.

This document is extracted the HDMI Specification Version 1.4a. Its purpose is to provide access to the 3D portion of the HDMI Specification Version 1.4a for companies and organizations that require access to this portion of the Specification but have not executed an HDMI Adopter Agreement.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: petetherock on March 07, 2010, 13:01
Actually in order to get HDMI 1.4 at a lower cost, look for the new generation BR players, which will be equipped with 2 HDMI outputs, then get the HDMI 1.4 TV and run one set to the amp, and another to the TV.

But if the main thrust is 3D, then IMHO, I would wait. But if you suffer from upgraditis, which many senior members here do, then the potentially finanically large burden of overhauling the system will loom ahead.

Thats how companies make money, if everything stays the same no one will buy new stuff.
So you will need:
New TV
New AMP - good luck to our members who just bought that spanking new DSX / IIz equipped amp
New BR player
Plus new HDMI cables. The entire chain needs to be replaced.

But for those on a budget, this will be a good time to pick up bargains when the big guns sell their current stuff to replace it with 1.4 equipped hardware.

I am staying put for while, until the dust settles on HDMI 1.4, since so much is in evolution.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: Doggie Howser on March 07, 2010, 13:42
What HDMI 1.4 brings to the table:

- Ethernet connectivity: we've already got Ethernet switches fixed up in most racks so it's not really an issue
- Audio "return". I don't watch TV and most who do use a set top box, so it's a non-issue. AGAIN.
- 3D video which is only available for TVs now and not projectors and you can simply work around by getting an HDMI 1.4 cable direct to the display. You would need a new HDMI1.4 cable anyway, remember? As long as the BR player supports dual HDMI outputs, you are sorted. Using AVR as a switch is a convenience but I know in the US, many work around the switching delays by using optical to AVR and HDMI direct to display anyway. Even today.

So this is not as big an issue as pete paints it out to be. IMHO



Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: petetherock on March 07, 2010, 14:07
Did I paint it to be a big deal or you feel that way?
EDIT
And you just repeated what I posted earlier on how to get 1.4 and 3D cheaper:

Quote
Actually in order to get HDMI 1.4 at a lower cost, look for the new generation BR players, which will be equipped with 2 HDMI outputs, then get the HDMI 1.4 TV and run one set to the amp, and another to the TV.


If you need to swop Tvs, and get a new BR player, I reckon in most owners' books, thats big enough a deal, but that not bother you bro..

And a change in cables too..
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: Doggie Howser on March 07, 2010, 14:56
Earlier you said that it was a big deal for those who upgraded to IIz/DSX amps, when it wasn't the case.

And the other stuff that 1.4 brings to the table are pretty much non-issues except for the 3D stuff which there are enough workarounds for.

So it's not too big a deal to upgrade if that's what you really wanted: just the 3D TV and the 3D BR which you'd have expected to get anyway. Those two would be the fastest to go obselete in the 3D stakes, not the AVR.

Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: petetherock on March 07, 2010, 15:03
If you wish to upgrade the whole lot, then it is a big deal bro, and as I mentioned, it may not be more than small change for you, but even changing a TV or BR player is significant for the majority of new members, who may also be reading this thread. And some will consider changing the amp. See how some of our members change their amps / BR players / other equipment within months even Without the advent of 1.4, but that cost does not bother these members does it?

Its not fear mongering, in fact, my take on it, and also that of other members here as you can read from posts by HT102 in Jeff's thread is that we should watch and see, to decide if it is mature enough to take the plunge. Of course those with deeper pockets would not consider changing the equipment just because it is out there and it is new. After all the bragging rights to being the first kid on the block with HDMI 1.4 is a very tempting proposition for some of us, don't you agree?

:)
Earlier you said that it was a big deal for those who upgraded to IIz/DSX amps, when it wasn't the case.

And the other stuff that 1.4 brings to the table are pretty much non-issues except for the 3D stuff which there are enough workarounds for.

So it's not too big a deal to upgrade if that's what you really wanted: just the 3D TV and the 3D BR which you'd have expected to get anyway. Those two would be the fastest to go obselete in the 3D stakes, not the AVR.


Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: Doggie Howser on March 07, 2010, 15:30
I think most of us are enthusiasts. I am not sure where you get the idea of bragging rights.

It's a hobby that most of us take seriously.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: desray on March 07, 2010, 17:20
I'm sure its the 'heat-wave' that's driving us 'nuts' here...cool off guys. Its just a discussion.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: Doggie Howser on March 07, 2010, 20:18
Des

This is just two different perspectives of the HDMI debate ;) think your mod services are needed more in willoammaxtor's threads hehe :D
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: petetherock on March 07, 2010, 20:22
I agree to disagree with DH.
DH has a different viewpoint, thats all. :)
Its all good, but I am keen to watch this page, and see, simply because I have too many things I will need to upgrade, so I have been watching the US market for signs that 1.4 will become mainstream. IMHO, that will only take place in 2011 or even later.

Cheers

EDIT:

A point is how much 3D do we want or is it just a novelty. Sometimes the inconvience of wearing glasses on top of my glassess seems like too much trouble. So sit tight, thats my advice esp to members who might be reading about all the hype of 3D and HDMI 1.4 which will come this year as vendors try to drum up support for this.


EDIT II:

Do I believe that our members here wish to be at the forefront of technology, need I say more? Of course, quite a few will pay premo prices to be the first to post here about their new HDMI 1.4 setups... just wait... :)
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: desray on March 07, 2010, 22:23
EDIT:

A point is how much 3D do we want or is it just a novelty. Sometimes the inconvience of wearing glasses on top of my glassess seems like too much trouble. So sit tight, thats my advice esp to members who might be reading about all the hype of 3D and HDMI 1.4 which will come this year as vendors try to drum up support for this.

My thoughts exactly...not all shows/movies requires a 'wow' effect...sometimes plain old vanilla presentation (2D) will do. If the story plot and cast is excellent - frankly 3D or 2D doesn't really make much of a difference...I will still immensely enjoy myself with the film. ;D
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: desray on March 07, 2010, 22:25
Des

This is just two different perspectives of the HDMI debate ;) think your mod services are needed more in willoammaxtor's threads hehe :D

And my official reply to that will still be - We'll continue to monitor for now.

;)
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: Doggie Howser on March 07, 2010, 22:59
Did u even comment in that thread like in this one? Didn't think Pete and my discussions warranted a mod's direct intervention. :)
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: desray on March 07, 2010, 23:25
Did u even comment in that thread like in this one? Didn't think Pete and my discussions warranted a mod's direct intervention. :)

Eh...bro I'm not exactly sure which part of the below mentioned remark I mentioned in this thread antagonize you in such a hostile manner...before you pass a remark, pls take a moment to read my first posting...

"I'm sure its the 'heat-wave' that's driving us 'nuts' here...cool off guys. Its just a discussion."

Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: Doggie Howser on March 08, 2010, 00:18
I think Pete and I were having a mature discussion abt the subject. :) hence my replies which were peppered with numerous smileys.

I thought that in the light of the moderator's stance abt williammaxtor's numerous flamebaits (ie monitor but not intervene), it seemed contradictory. :)
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: econav on March 08, 2010, 01:07
anyway , for now that is no sign of any audio format change and 1.4 don't address anything on audio but the video bandwidth , in commercial / industry application the player have 1 port for audio and 1 port for video .
As far as i know currently no AVR or chipset support and decode both audio and video , that likely to say ,if you decide to go 3D by mid 2011 , all things go and all things change , except your speaker.

Do watch out a interface from China , a few jap mfr are working on it. :)
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: petetherock on March 08, 2010, 06:28
IMO, if they are moving forward, getting a better connection will be one of the things they should do.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: desray on March 08, 2010, 07:33
I think Pete and I were having a mature discussion abt the subject. :) hence my replies which were peppered with numerous smileys.

I thought that in the light of the moderator's stance abt williammaxtor's numerous flamebaits (ie monitor but not intervene), it seemed contradictory. :)

I'm not gonna comment any further as you really do not see the whole picture here. It is most unfortunate but I'm glad that you make your point and I acknowledge your reaction if you 'think' in that manner.

On an endnote, when we 'moderate' (I speak on behalf of all the Mods and Queks as well) in deciding an action - i.e. whether to do intervene to mediate, to remain status-quo or 'ban' someone...we will usually consult each other first and gather the feedback before we decide what to do. Its never a one-man thing...we don't penalize or misuse our power or act on something on an impulse. That much I hoped you understand.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: Doggie Howser on March 08, 2010, 09:14
Sorry for the OT Pete.

Des, I get it. It's tough bring a moderator. Not all policies will go well with everyone. That's fine. I don't expect special treatment. Just consistency. So far, I have not seen a mod step in with as much as a "cool it" when williammaxtor goes on his flame posts. And here, Pete and I have a mature discussion and end up with a mod telling us to.

FWIW I see Pete's POV. In the interests of an elegant solution, this new HDMI1.4 and the associated hardware will be disruptive, but there are workarounds for it if you are inclined to. We've adapted to AVRs with no component inputs, then to those with no HDMI etc. And HDMI1.4 is no different. No loss of quality just a change in how we do things: switch inputs etc.

 
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: petetherock on March 08, 2010, 09:21
Its ok, DH, there are also some chaps who feel Willie's posts have been justified, and hence have made the snide remarks in the feedback forums, good to know I am not alone (actually others have also indicated to me that I am not alone about the matter).

Anyway back to the HDMI issue, it is a smart move by the companies, imagine how much money there is to be if everyone is forced to convert?

So I still say: stay put enjoy your system and see if 3D is really useful for daily viewing...
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: Doggie Howser on March 08, 2010, 09:59
I watch my shows primarily on the projector so it is unlikely I would be on the first batch of adopters.. unless there's an affordable 3D projector that also offers better contrast, ease of use and maintenance as my current model (AE3000).

I guess like many here, we adopt based on our own criteria: didn't see the need to upgrade from the AE3000 to the AE4000, nor the replacement for the Onkyo 875.

Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: armoury on March 08, 2010, 11:23
Des, I get it. It's tough bring a moderator. Not all policies will go well with everyone. That's fine. I don't expect special treatment. Just consistency. So far, I have not seen a mod step in with as much as a "cool it" when williammaxtor goes on his flame posts. And here, Pete and I have a mature discussion and end up with a mod telling us to.
Its ok, DH, there are also some chaps who feel Willie's posts have been justified, and hence have made the snide remarks in the feedback forums, good to know I am not alone (actually others have also indicated to me that I am not alone about the matter).

The difference IMHO is that everyone here recognises williammaxtor as a troll and has stopped feeding it.  And can't be arsed to dignify any of his further nonsense and is simply ignoring him. 

But when two senior and respected members seem to be going back and forth in quick succession, a gentle reminder blaming the heatwave and no one in particular isn't entirely remiss, is it?  Personally I didn't see any big deal in what was going on, but perhaps the idea is to nip it in bud... 

Me, I think I'll be sitting out until the dust settles.  Bottom line for me is that there probably isn't enough 3D software available to make any switch worthwhile.  And because my 500A is barely a year old, and my Oppo is even newer -- how to justify another upgrade?
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: Doggie Howser on March 08, 2010, 11:41
FWIW I didn't think it was getting to the point where a reminder was needed.
:)

Perhaps I could have typed a longer more verbose response had I been on a computer but I was on the iphone.
Title: 3D HDTV and HDMI Explained
Post by: petetherock on March 10, 2010, 07:00

http://hdguru.com/3d-hdtv-and-hdmi-explained/1336/

Quote
Full HD 3D

Transmitting uncompressed Full High Definition 3D (FHD3D) signals (defined as 1920 x 1080 resolution for both the left and right eye [each frame]) requires connecting a 3D Blu-ray player to a FHD3D TV using a suitable HDMI cable. The FHD3D signal’s bit rate is 6.75 Gbps (gigabits per second). The HDMI 1.4 standard’s maximum bit rate of 10.2Gbps is identical to that of the older HDMI 1.3 standard.

The 1920 x 2205 pixel at 24Hz (see drawing above) FHD3D signal differs from any previous HD or 3D signal. 1920 is the number of active pixels across each frame while 2205 pixels is the vertical resolution of two Full HD frames plus 45 pixels of active blanking separating the FHD left and right frames.

As the drawing illustrates, the signal places the two frames in a configuration known as “over/under.” This is the first and currently only FHD3D TV standard signal and because it is totally new, no non-FHD3D display can accept it.

This is important, as some consumer electronics writers speculate incorrectly that a modification will allow legacy 120Hz and 240Hz LCD displays to handle Blu-ray FHD3D content.

That said, Mitsubishi’s 2007, 2008 and 2009 legacy rear projection sets can be adapted to play these new FHD3D signals. Mitsubishi announced and demonstrated at the 2010 CES a converter box that down-converts the Blu-ray FHD3D HDMI signal (albeit at half resolution [960 x1080] for each eye). The converter box is due to arrive around the same time the first 3D capable Blu-ray players ship this spring.

The new HDMI 1.4 standard also permits another “over/under” 3D configuration at the lower 720p HD resolution (1280×720) at either 60Hz or 50 Hz Blu-ray player output.

All 3D Blu-ray players output FHD3D movies at 24 fps. Both LED LCD and CCFL backlit FH3D HDTVs internally convert the signal to sequential display (alternating left and right frames) at 240Hz (synchronizing with shutter glasses that provide 120 views per second for left and right eyes [120+120 =240]. All announced FHD3D plasma displays internally convert the 3D Blu-ray movie signals from “over/under” to frame sequential at 120 Hz for 60 views per second for each eye.

Surround Sound Receivers

Unfortunately, your current HDMI equipped surround sound receiver will not pass the new FHD3D signal and no upgrades are possible according to both Sony and Denon. Why? A system called EDID (Extended Display Identification Data) currently handles communications between your TV, receiver and source components and it works fine. However, when your new 3D television communicates that it is an FHD3D television, the receiver will not understand because the 3D ID was not part of the standard when your receiver was designed. The receiver will shut off the HDMI signal and your new 3D TV screen will go black.

Your only solution will be to replace your receiver with a new one that’s 3D compatible or use one of a number of available “work arounds.”  You can still use your current HDMI receiver with Panasonic’s upcoming 3D Blu-ray player because it includes a separate “audio only” HDMI output. Connect the video HDMI directly to your 3D set and the audio HDMI to your receiver to decode Dolby TruHD or DTS lossless codecs. No other manufacturer has announced this feature. You can also use coax or optical digital “outs” from the 3D Blu-ray player but you won’t get lossless audio and you’ll still have to connect the 3D Blu-ray player directly to the 3D HDTV to see the picture.

3D HDMI Cables

Will your existing 1.3 HDMI cables handle the FHD3D signal or will you have to replace them? The only way to really know is to connect it and see if they work. Some will, some won’t. If the cable can handle the 6.75 Gbps FHD3D data rate, it probably will.


There are two types of legacy 1.3 HDMI cables: Category 1 and Category 2. The former must be able to handle at least 2.25 Gbps signals, meaning it may not be able to handle FHD3D signal . Category 2 HDMI 1.3 cables handle signals up to 10.2 Gbps. These will certainly work.

The HDMI 1.4 standard has optional features for both TV and source component makers, including an audio return function and Ethernet connectivity (which allows one Ethernet signal to be carried to other connected components via HDMI if the maker includes this 1.4 feature).

To streamline HDMI cable selection Silicon Image dispensed with the old numerical system and replaced it with the following categories  (source: hdmi.org website):

Standard HDMI Cable
The Standard HDMI cable is designed to handle most home applications, and is tested to reliably transmit 1080i or 720p video – the HD resolutions that are commonly associated with cable and satellite television, digital broadcast HD, and upscaling DVD players.

Standard HDMI Cable with Ethernet
This cable type offers the same baseline performance as the Standard HDMI Cable shown above (720p or 1080i video resolution), plus an additional, dedicated data channel, known as the HDMI Ethernet Channel, for device networking. HDMI Ethernet Channel functionality is only available if both linked devices are HDMI Ethernet Channel-enabled.

Automotive HDMI Cable
Designed for internal cabling of vehicles equipped with onboard HD video systems. Tested to a more robust performance standard, and capable of withstanding the unique stresses of the motoring environment such as vibration and temperature extremes.

High Speed HDMI Cable
The High Speed HDMI cable is designed and tested to handle video resolutions of 1080p and beyond, including advanced display technologies such as 4K, 3D, and Deep Color. If you are using any of these technologies, or if you are connecting your 1080p display to a 1080p content source, such as a Blu-ray Disc player, this is the recommended cable.

High Speed HDMI Cable with Ethernet
This cable type offers the same baseline performance as the High Speed HDMI Cable shown above (1080p video resolution and beyond), plus an additional, dedicated data channel, known as the HDMI Ethernet Channel, for device networking. HDMI Ethernet Channel functionality is only available if both linked devices are HDMI Ethernet Channel-enabled.

(http://hdguru.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Blu-ray-3D-signal420.jpg)
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: koroshiya8 on March 10, 2010, 09:58
FWIW I didn't think it was getting to the point where a reminder was needed.
:)

Perhaps I could have typed a longer more verbose response had I been on a computer but I was on the iphone.


Just a tiny storm in a teacup. All 3 of u have my utmost respect here LOL.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: Doggie Howser on March 10, 2010, 10:12
I see the market for an HDMI 1.4 splitter/switch :)

Takes HDMI 1.4 inputs from 3D BR/cable boxes etc

Outputs HDMI 1.4 3D video to display
Outputs HDMI audio only to AVR

Negotiates the AutoID in between so the AVR and the 3D source don't have to downsample/convert.

Title: HDMI Cable Speed & Features Explained
Post by: petetherock on March 12, 2010, 23:12
http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/hdmi-cable-speed

Quote
Lies, Damned Lies, and Video Cable


Accordingly, before we start to talk about the things that really matter, let's get rid of some of the rubbish that can simply be dismissed as false or simply irrelevant, but which finds its way onto packages and into advertising copy:

"1080p certification"
There's no such thing.  We will get to the question of cable speeds later, which does relate in a way to this subject.
Support for new audio formats, such as Dolby TrueHD
While support for audio formats is a wonderful thing, cables have nothing to do with it.  All HDMI cables support Dolby TrueHD, et cetera, and since these audio formats have no impact upon the bitrate, no cable supports them any better than any other.
"Speed Rated" HDMI
Apart from two official speed ratings, "standard" (Category 1) and "high" (Category 2), as defined by HDMI Licensing, there are no other official speed rating standards for HDMI.  Some resellers of Chinese HDMI cables at crazy-high prices (yes, you know the one I'm thinking of) mark their cables with bogus "speed ratings" for which there are no published standards or specifications.   If it says "Ultra High Speed," or something like that, step slowly (or at Ultra-High Speed, if you prefer) away.
Support for x.v.YCC colorspace
Like support for Dolby TrueHD, a good thing; but, just as with Dolby, supported equally by all HDMI cables regardless of type, spec version or anything else.
Support for other specific resolutions, features and protocols
With the exception of the new Ethernet and audio return channel feature, whether it's 2K by 4K video, Deep Color, or what-have-you, support for these features depends entirely on the cable's rated speed and the impact of the particular feature on the bitrate, not on the nature of the feature.
"120Hz" or "240Hz" support
No set-top device emits an HDMI signal at these framerates, though the Sony PS3 and any PC has the potential.  Rather, a display labeled "120Hz" or "240Hz" has an internal frame-refresh rate as stated.  It's completely irrelevant to the HDMI cable or to the signal the HDMI cable carries.  
With all of that on the rubbish heap and burning, there's very little left in the marketing-speak of HDMI cable, and that's a good thing.  As complex as HDMI standards can be, and as complex as transmission-line theory can be, buying HDMI cable actually ought to be fairly simple, in part because...

Digital Is Digital
As long as one appreciates the limits of the point, it's an important point to make: a digital signal is just a string of ones and zeros.  When a digital signal gets through a cable, and is interpreted correctly at the other end with no dropped bits, the result is no loss of information, and hence no loss of picture or sound quality.   The signal may have suffered a great deal of degradation along the way from multiple causes; there may have been EMI, RFI, intrapair skew, interpair skew, return loss, rounding from capacitance, attenuation, anything - but if the bitstream gets read correctly at the end of the process, none of that degradation makes one bit (either figuratively or literally) of difference.


"Speed Rating" a Cable - Separating Science from Nonsense
As we've pointed out, there are some nonsense "speed rating" systems for HDMI cable out there, which exist largely just to adorn the packages containing HDMI cable with up-selling tools for the vendor.   Whether it's "Ultra High Speed," or just "Faster 'n' All Get-Out," you can safely ignore these labels--they are completely meaningless.  However, there is one important, but limited, sense in which one can meaningfully and accurately talk about "speed ratings" for HDMI cables.

First-generation HDMI cables were designed with 1080i and 720p video in mind, at eight-bit color depth.  Both of these resolutions require a clock rate of 74.25 MHz, and 742.5 Mbps per data channel in the HDMI signal, and originally (through HDMI specification 1.2), this is what HDMI cable compliance testing was targeted at.  With HDMI specification 1.3, however, the single-link bandwidth limit per data channel was raised to 3.4 Gbps, to accommodate such things as deep color and higher framerates, and from what we've already said above it should be clear that a cable which works fine at 742.5 Mbps will not necessarily work at a data rate which is over four times as fast.  To address this issue, HDMI specification 1.3 introduced two "Categories" of HDMI cable, somewhat blandly named "Category 1" and "Category 2."  Ever since 1.3, all HDMI cables which are tested for compliance certification are designated either as Category 1, and tested at 742.5 Mbps/channel, or as Category 2, and tested both at 1.65 Gbps (without equalization) and at 3.4 Gbps/channel (with equalization).  A cable which has passed Category 2 certification is capable of handling any data rate allowed under the HDMI specification; a cable which has passed Category 1, but not Category 2, is certified capable of handling anything up to 742.5 Mbps/channel, representing conventional 720p or 1080i HD resolutions at their normal framerates and eight-bit color depth.

The "Category 1" and "Category 2" labels for these data-speed tests, not being descriptive, seem to have been a bit confusing for consumers, and accordingly, the HDMI Licensing organization has announced that they should be referred to as "Standard Speed" and "High Speed" instead.  Additionally, in response to the deceptive use of bogus vendor "speed ratings," HDMI Licensing has expressly prohibited the use of variants such as "Ultra High Speed" and the like, so that with any luck the only "speeds" being talked about soon will be Standard and High.

What About "Gigabits per Second" Ratings?
For various reasons, many vendors avoid talking about the official "High" and "Standard" speed categories, and instead like to claim that a cable is rated for some particular speed which may be higher or lower than the tested speeds under Category 2.  We recommend that you disregard these claims.  There are no objective engineering standards against which to test them, and none of the vendors who make these sorts of claims publish the criteria by which they have allegedly rated their own cables.

One other problem with relying on these claims is that it is not always clear what is meant by a stated data rate.  The use of terminology here has been incredibly sloppy.  The HDMI organization will sometimes refer to the official speeds by giving the single-channel data rate (e.g., 3.4 Gbps for the higher- speed of the two Category 2 tests), and sometimes by giving the three-channel data rate (e.g. 10.2 Gbps for the same).  To know what is meant when a data rate is cited, you've got to know whether it's the one-channel or the three-channel rate.  To make matters worse, the HDMI organization also sometimes calls the clock speed (one-tenth the bitrate), stated in Megahertz, the "bandwidth" of the cable.  This is simply an incorrect use of the term, and it means that the 3.4 Gbps speed not only may sometimes be called 10.2 Gbps, but also may be called 340 MHz.  In actual fact, a cable which could only handle 340 MHz of bandwidth, as that term is ordinarily defined, could not handle a 3.4 Gbps datastream - the cable bandwidth required is somewhere in the neighborhood of 1.5 times the data rate, expressed in Hertz, or 5.1 GHz - this accommodates the maximum fundamental frequency (half the data rate) plus its third harmonic.

Ethernet and Audio Return Channel
One other characteristic feature which an HDMI cable may carry is the new "Ethernet channel," and its accompanying sub-feature, the "Audio Return Channel."  To fit these features into the HDMI cable, there is a slightly revised cable structure available under 1.4 which reconfigures a couple of the miscellaneous conductors into a 100-ohm balanced data line for use in Ethernet, with one side of that line also being used to allow a display to send multichannel audio back "upstream" to an A/V receiver.  It's a kludgy arrangement, and makes for a complex specification.  We have our doubts that these will ever be features to see much use, but as with all future things, it's hard to say.

What About Version Numbers?
You'll notice we haven't said much about version numbers, and there's a reason for that.  Version numbers have tended to confuse the issue more often than not, and HDMI Licensing has asked us to stop using them to describe cables (Editor's Note: They have also forced manufacturers to stop using them to describe electronics as well - a move we don't necessarily agree with). Why?  Because a version number, by itself, tells you nothing useful about the cable.  All versions of the spec permit cables to be certified compliant at the "Standard" speed data rate, and all versions of the spec permit cables to be certified compliant without an Ethernet channel.  A cable tested and found compliant using spec version 1.4 does not necessarily offer any advantage over a cable tested and found compliant using spec version 1.1, and to know whether it does you need only to know two things: (1) is it certified as a "high speed" or a "standard speed" cable, and (2) does it carry an Ethernet channel?  Meanwhile, HDMI Licensing has made the requirement explicit that before a cable is certified as compliant at a specific length, it must be tested and found compliant either at that length or longer, so there should be no squeezing around the issue by marketing a cable found compliant at 3 feet as though it had been found compliant at 50.
 


Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: petetherock on March 12, 2010, 23:13
Quote
How to Tell the Compliant Status of an HDMI Cable
The advice we have been giving for a long time holds true still: if you actually want to know whether a cable is compliant, and at what standard, you need to see the vendor's compliance certificate.  When a cable is tested and found compliant, a certificate which shows the length of the cable, and the nature of the testing (Category 1 or 2, with or without Ethernet) is issued.  If your vendor doesn't have one for their cable, that may well be because the cable is, despite representations to the contrary, non-compliant.

HDMI Licensing has issued a new set of logos which are, in future, to be used to label HDMI cable assemblies.  There are five of these, only four of which are applicable to conventional HDMI cables (the last is for automotive use), and which cover the four possible answers to the two questions: standard speed or high?  Ethernet or not?

Now, the clever fellows who think up ways to sell cables are no doubt working out just how they're going to make new specious claims about HDMI cables without running afoul of the trademark licensing guidelines, and it will be interesting indeed to see what they come up with.  When you run into new, strange and interesting ways of rating HDMI cables, be alert: more likely than not, the purpose is not to teach you something about HDMI cable but to pry more money out of your wallet. 
Title: 1.3a is ok enough... CEDIA says
Post by: petetherock on March 20, 2010, 17:51


http://www.cedia.com.au/index.cfm/page/news_detail/id/217

Quote
Comments were put together by CEDIA members David Meyer (Kordz) & Michael Heiss

3D WILL run through existing HDMI cables. However we do believe that 3D will ‘up the ante’ in terms of quality of cable, but from a bandwidth perspective, nothing changes... yet. Virtually all currently deployed HDMI over 5m in length (generally) are NOT High Speed, rather Standard Speed certification level, but with sufficient headroom to enable 1080p operation. Note that these cables are only certified to 720p/1080i (provided they are certified at all!), and used without compliance to 1080p level. Most installers don’t really care about certified performance, just “whether it will work” – unfortunate, but fact. This will however become more of an issue moving forward.

1. 3D from Blu-ray has been mandated at an initial maximum of 1080p/24 per eye, meaning effectively 1080p/48 combined data rate – less than the current 2D standard of 1080p/60. So if the HDMI cable supports 1080p/60 fine now, it will also support 3D from Blu-ray no problem. Note: it is insufficient to talk resolution without referencing frame rate as it does not otherwise define the data rate. Gaming has been defined under the new specification 1.4a (out just last week) that 720p/60 per eye be supported, but gamers will likely want 1080p in due course. When this happens I predict that we’ll see gaming go to 1080p/60 per eye, meaning nearly 9.0Gbps – DEFINITELY High Speed and nothing less – currently cables that support 1080p/60 in 2D, but without High Speed certification, will NOT support 1080p/60 in 3D. In the meantime though, support for such high res/frame rate has not been made mandatory, and is merely speculative.

2. It is NOT necessary to upgrade to a so-called “HDMI 1.4” cable to enable 3D support. Also, any cable which is referred to by the manufacturer as “HDMI 1.4” is in fact non-compliant due to its breach of the HDMI Logo & Trademark guidelines. So, should you care if a cable is simply mislabelled? Absolutely! Labelling the cable in a compliant manner is the easy part; making the cable to perform in a compliant manner is actually the really hard part. If a manufacturer can’t get the small stuff right, how can they be trusted with the big stuff?

3. For broadcast, the HDMI 1.4a specification mandates support for 720p & 1080i @ 50/59.94/60 refresh rates (NOT 1080p at all), using “over and under” and “side by side” 3D formats. This means both left and right eye images share the same frame, keeping bandwidth the same as current 2D equivalents, but effectively halving the resulting resolution per eye when displayed on screen. Bottom line, Standard Speed HDMI is fine for broadcast

4. So will HD Set top boxes need to be HDMI 1.4 compliant to handle 3D? This all depends on whether the set top box will have any requirement to know that an incoming broadcast signal is 3D, and flag it as such. If so, then firmware will need to be upgraded, effectively changing the device to HDMI 1.4a compliance (I suspect this will be the case). If it’s just a slave and throughputs the signal passively, with the broadcaster flagging the content for a display to recognize it as 3D and do its thing, then the boxes wouldn’t need an upgrade and 1.3 spec is fine (highlyunlikely). Either way there will not be any hardware change, at least not specifically for the 3D feature. That is, it is expected that all devices will require 1.4a compliance to support 3D, but that does not mean having to buy all new devices – some will simply be firmware upgraded. Sony are already offering this with some of their Blu-ray players.

 

As for HDMI Ethernet Channel (HEC), this is an optional extra feature of both devices and cables, with the latter requiring the additional label “...with Ethernet” on cables. As Michael says, HEC is not used at all for 3D – this is absolutely true. The Audio Return Channel will use the HEC for best results, but can also still work in “Single Line” mode through cables without the Ethernet Channel. So choosing a HDMI cable with Ethernet Channel opens up support for distribution of Ethernet over HDMI, and the most robust operation of Audio Return Channel. It is NOT required for 3D.

 

So, suffice to say that HDMI cables that currently support 1080p/60 can continue to be used for 3D from all sources, but with new installations, upgrading to true certified High Speed will certainly give a far superior degree of “future proofing”, especially when considering where gaming is likely to go.

 

We hope this helps answer some of the mysteries out in the industry.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: batdance on March 22, 2010, 20:03
got this from kinokuniya today.........(pic from a blog)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_W6RPSU-mUdc/S6ET717GPYI/AAAAAAAAEkw/ueijqncYcHw/s400/image002.jpg)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_W6RPSU-mUdc/S6WBUg0sbVI/AAAAAAAAEqA/VUI6nNQtpa0/s400/DSC04467.JPG)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_W6RPSU-mUdc/S6WBVMmSkiI/AAAAAAAAEqI/sBw1wQjcMfo/s400/DSC04466.JPG)
Title: HDMI 1.4 - or not...
Post by: petetherock on April 02, 2010, 14:03
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=18366012#post18366012

Beware:

Quote
Originally Posted by M Code 
The latest announced HDMI 1.4 AVRs from Pioneer and Onkyo use the present HDMI Tx & Rx ICs from Silicon Image, and are capable of 3-D video up to 1080i..Faster HDMI ICs with higher bandwidth capable of 3-D video up to 1080p will be available later this year..

Quote
To process 3-D HD video @ 1080p within the AVR (as a repeater) requires the latest Silicon Image ICs, #SII9387 Rx and #SII9334 Tx. These parts did not sample until late 2009 so it was impossible for the primary Japanese brands to design, debug, validate, certify, procure and build into mass production in time for delivery by 2nd quarter 2010. This is the most important quarter for a Japanese corporation as April is the start of their new fiscal year.

Additionally note that since the hype for 3-D HD video had already started last Summer so they took this approach. Note that this is very similar what Sony did with the PS3 @ launch time, they delivered HDMI 1.3 video but HDMI 1.2 audio yet they pushed as HDMI 1.3...

It is all in the hype, besides the changes in S/W for 1.4 requires significant code changes and these take significant time to write and debug..

The higher performance AVRs with HDMI 1.4 using the latest ICs that can handle the highest resolutions in 3D will be shown @ CEDIA 2010 & IFA 2010 in September and shipped in late 2010..
Title: Onkyo HDMI v1.4 3D-Ready AV Receivers shipped
Post by: jeffong on April 05, 2010, 21:17
Onkyo Introduces the World's First THX Certified 3D-Ready A/V Receiver

The Onkyo TX-SR608 THX-Certified A/V Receiver is one of several HDMI v1.4, 3D-Ready A/V Receivers and Home Theater Systems that will ship in March and April.

UPPER SADDLE RIVER, NJ, (3/9/10) -- Onkyo USA has announced March deliveries of its first 3D-Ready home theater receivers and home theater in a box (HTiB) systems. The new models consist of three A/V receivers and three HTiB systems ranging in price from $299 to $599, and all of them support the new HDMI v1.4 connectivity standard for new 3D video displays and Audio Return Channel capabilities. All are exceptionally well equipped to provide a superior music, home theater sound and video experience, with high build-quality and offering excellent value.

For Onkyo, a name that translates roughly to 'sound harmony' in Japanese, sound quality is preeminent. All these new receivers and HTiBs now decode lossless Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio bitstreams, and include new 192-kHz/24-bit Burr-Brown PCM1690 DAC's that are highly resistant to clock jitter and provide a remarkable 113-dB dynamic range. The lineup includes Onkyo's new easy-to-setup overlaid onscreen graphical display that lets the user watch the program in the background while using the function menus. Additionally, all 2010 HDMI v1.4 models include a new feature call HDMI Thru. HDMI Thru allows content to pass through to the TV when the receiver is in a standby state.

The new TX-SR608 7.2-channel THX-Select2 Plus certified receiver has new power amplifier section that uses three-stage inverted Darlington output topology, and a power boost from 90 to 100 watts. Audyssey DSX dimensional sound processing has been added to its predecessor's Dolby PLIIz capabilities. Additionally, all video sources, including those using the new PC input, and regardless of source resolution, can be upscaled to big and beautiful 1080p via HDMI and Faroudja DCDi Cinema™. The TX-SR608 will also include a front HDMI input, a feature first introduced by Onkyo in 2009. The TX-SR608 will be available in April at an MSRP of $599.

The 5.1-channel TX-SR308 and 7.1-channel TX-SR508 round out this initial announcement of A/V Receivers from Onkyo. The TX-SR308 will be available in March with an MSRP of $299, a followed by the TX-SR508 in April for $399.

The HTiB package systems, which each consist of a receiver, speakers and a subwoofer, are the 5.1-channel HT-S3300 and 7.1-channel HT-S5300; the latter also includes an iPod dock. Thanks to the HDMI interface and the use of advanced Dolby and DTS codecs, all of these receivers and systems are also capable of decoding lossless Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio. The HT-S3300 will ship in March with an MSRP of $379, followed by the HT-S5300 in April for $599.

A third packaged system departs from the traditional HTiB form factor and uses a combination subwoofer and 3D Ready A/V receiver plus two front speakers. It uses Onkyo's own Theater-Dimensional processor to create an immersive and convincing surround effect through just 2.1 channels. The HTX-22HDX has three HDMI v1.4 inputs, handles HD audio formats from DTS and Dolby; offers four distinct audio modes for gaming; and outputs for additional speakers. The HTX-22HDX will ship in May with a $349 MSRP.

"Onkyo's 2010 entry-level product line represents a significant jump over last year's line," said Paul Wasek, Onkyo USA's marketing manager. "We are excited to deliver this first wave of 3D capable products. By upgrading to 1.4, even on the least expensive HTiB, we have eliminated all HDMI pass-through products and allowed HD audio formats to be used across the line. The fact that consumers can now buy a THX-Certified receiver with 1080p upscaling, Burr-Brown DACs, PC input and more for under $600 shows Onkyo's clear commitment to delivering performance and value to consumers."

All of Onkyo's receivers offer exceptional connectivity options with as many as six HDMI inputs, plus component and composite video, numerous stereo input jacks, optical/coaxial digital inputs, and the popular front-panel connections on many models. Two models include Sirius Radio connections, and all these receivers incorporate Onkyo's proprietary Universal Port (U-Port) connector which simplifies connections to optional HD Radio tuners and iPod Docks (included with the HT-S5300).
Title: Re: HDMI 1.4 - or not...
Post by: n3wk1d on April 06, 2010, 11:41
For those whose worried about your cable capabilities of going 1.4 or 3D, here are some info I gather from the manufacturer.
As long as your cable bandwidth are there (10.2Gbps), you should have no issue going 3D.


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=18366012#post18366012

Beware:

Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: petetherock on April 06, 2010, 11:52
Thats what I posted earlier bro :)
What I wanted readers to beware of was that the first few 1.4 and 3D AV amps were only capable of 1080i 3D, not because of the cables, but the video chip used.

Cheers.
For those whose worried about your cable capabilities of going 1.4 or 3D, here are some info I gather from the manufacturer.
As long as your cable bandwidth are there (10.2Gbps), you should have no issue going 3D.


Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: HT102 on May 11, 2010, 20:22
It appears that our HDMI v1.3 receivers can be updated with a new HDMI EDID firmware to support 3D video transmission.. perhaps still subjected to a bandwidth limit of 1080i@24/60Hz 3D.

Well, Harmon Kardon is the first of the CE manufacturer's to allow this upgrade (refer to link and extract below) and for free! Let's hope other manufacturers (e.g Denon, Onkyo, etc) will follow suit..

Ref: http://www.locale.harmankardon.com/en-US/HDMI14a.html (http://www.locale.harmankardon.com/en-US/HDMI14a.html)

-----------------------

HARMAN KARDON Announces HDMI v.1.4a with 3D

Harman Kardon is a company that thinks ahead and one of the greatest features we provide on our AVR receivers is the ability to upgrade them when new firmware and technologies become available. To accommodate the excitement of 3D Video, Harman Kardon is pleased to announce a two prong strategy to deliver compatibility with the latest advancement in consumer electronics.

    * Starting in September, all Harman Kardon AVR 2600, AVR 3600 and AVR 7550HD models will be shipping with HDMI v.1.4a with 3D. This will allow full compatibility with all 3D formats from either Blu-ray players or satellite and cable services.

    * At the same time, all current owners of these models, regardless of the date of purchase, will be able to update their existing AVR’s to HDMI v.1.4a with 3D. This upgrade will be available at no charge from www.harmankardon.com. All you will need to do is download the software to a USB memory stick, insert the stick drive into the front panel USB jack of your AVR, and with a few button presses on the remote control, the AVR will be upgraded. No direct connection between the computer and AVR is required or software “loader” is required, greatly simplifying the upgrade process.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: petetherock on May 11, 2010, 22:36
I think it depends on which video chip is used in the HDMI section in your amps or BR players. Some of the later ones are not dissimilar to those currently being touted as HDMI 1.4 (not 1.4a). And thats why the Onkyo and Yamaha releases are "pseudo-3D" since they are only 1080i.

I am watching this page first, since things are in flux and its all marketing fluff IMO right now with little software and even less industrial standardization.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: HT102 on May 11, 2010, 23:20
I think it depends on which video chip is used in the HDMI section in your amps or BR players. Some of the later ones are not dissimilar to those currently being touted as HDMI 1.4 (not 1.4a). And thats why the Onkyo and Yamaha releases are "pseudo-3D" since they are only 1080i.

I am watching this page first, since things are in flux and its all marketing fluff IMO right now with little software and even less industrial standardization.

Well, I am keeping fingers crossed that Denon will allow such upgrade to the AVR-4810, which apparently was planned to have HDMI v1.4 support that did not materialize. Furthermore, Denon has a history of providing features upgrade (it's an option in the setup menu!), albeit at a price. FYI, Audyssey DSX was recently made available to AVR-3310 for S$145.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: HT102 on May 14, 2010, 18:56
The article below (refer link) mentioned the possibility of upgrading of HDMI v1.3 receivers to support 3D.

http://www.twice.com/article/452115-New_Audio_Products_Repeat_3D_Broadcast_Video_Formats.php (http://www.twice.com/article/452115-New_Audio_Products_Repeat_3D_Broadcast_Video_Formats.php)


OTOH, it appears that the SiL9134 HDMI chip used in today's receivers can support the 3D Frame Packing Structure:

http://www.siliconimage.com/products/product.aspx?pid=102 (http://www.siliconimage.com/products/product.aspx?pid=102)
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: petetherock on May 14, 2010, 21:53
Thats the 1080i chip I was referrring to in my earlier post bro.
The Full HD chips are not out yet..



OTOH, it appears that the SiL9134 HDMI chip used in today's receivers can support the 3D Frame Packing Structure:

http://www.siliconimage.com/products/product.aspx?pid=102 (http://www.siliconimage.com/products/product.aspx?pid=102)
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: Norman Chan on May 14, 2010, 23:50
Does anyone come across review between a normal copper HDMI cable vs a Silver plated copper HDMI cable (the plating in %) vs a Pure Silver HDMI cable ?
Title: Standard and high speed - that's it
Post by: petetherock on December 12, 2010, 16:46
HDMI:

This is an excellent link:
http://www.hdmi.org/learningcenter/kb.aspx?c=7#49

Note that the terms 1.3 and 1.4 are no longer in use, so beware if someone is trying hard to sell you a cable based on this.

There is only "Standard" or "High Speed".

The main difference is the former is good up to 1080i.

Quote
Q. What is the difference between a “Standard” HDMI cable and a “High-Speed” HDMI cable?
Recently, HDMI Licensing, LLC announced that cables would be tested as Standard or High-Speed cables.

Standard (or “category 1”) HDMI cables have been tested to perform at speeds of 75Mhz or up to 2.25Gbps, which is the equivalent of a 720p/1080i signal.
High Speed (or “category 2”) HDMI cables have been tested to perform at speeds of 340Mhz or up to 10.2Gbps, which is the highest bandwidth currently available over an HDMI cable and can successfully handle 1080p signals including those at increased color depths and/or increased refresh rates from the Source. High-Speed cables are also able to accommodate higher resolution displays, such as WQXGA cinema monitors (resolution of 2560 x 1600).

Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: petetherock on March 09, 2011, 13:08
Just bringing this up... only two kinds of speed. And I seriously doubt small differences in speed matter...
HDMI:

This is an excellent link:
http://www.hdmi.org/learningcenter/kb.aspx?c=7#49

Note that the terms 1.3 and 1.4 are no longer in use, so beware if someone is trying hard to sell you a cable based on this.

There is only "Standard" or "High Speed".

The main difference is the former is good up to 1080i.


Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: petetherock on March 27, 2011, 20:14
What ARC means:
http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_1_4/arc.aspx

Audio Return Channel

The Audio Return Channel in HDMI 1.4 enables a TV, via a single HDMI cable, to send audio data “upstream” to an A/V receiver or surround audio controller, increasing user flexibility and eliminating the need for any separate S/PDIF audio connection.

TVs have always been able to receive multi-channel audio through an HDMI connection, and this is still a typical use-case, with the TV positioned “downstream” from content sources and any connected audio equipment. However, if a user had a TV with a built-in tuner or DVD player, and wanted to send content “upstream” from the TV back to the audio system, a separate connection had to be installed, typically an S/PDIF cable.

    * An Audio Return Channel-enabled TV can either send or receive audio via HDMI, upstream or downstream, depending on system set-up and user preferences.

    * LipSync functionality, introduced in HDMI 1.3, ensures that the audio stays matched to the video, automatically compensating for any processor delays whether the audio is traveling upstream or downstream.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: myspeaker on April 05, 2011, 17:38
Hi,

Supposing I am using the Lexicon RV-8 receiver which does not have hdmi, how can I join in in these hdmi developments without changing my receiver? I heard there are certain wires you could buy. Thanks.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: Doggie Howser on April 05, 2011, 19:32
I believe there was a company that provided modifications to the old Oppo 83 to convert HDMI to 3xSPDIF which could work with some legacy AV prepro.

Think that company's stopped operating tho.

I expect the Lexicon shd have analog 5.1 or 7.1 inputs.

In this case, you can use a BDP that can decode HD audio and with good analog 5.1 or 7.1 outputs to the lexicon.

Use the HDMI from the BDP to the display.


Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: myspeaker on April 05, 2011, 21:06
Hi Doggie Howser

Thank you very much for the info. So the BDP should be sufficient w/o any special cables etc?

Do you know if any ordinary BDP like the Sony S765 will be sufficient, or do I need something more high-end to get the same effect as a hdmi receiver?
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: Doggie Howser on April 05, 2011, 21:17
As these are analog cables, you can probably find different price ranges, from cheap ones to more expensive ones. I'm not sure if you would consider them special or not :)

I haven't heard the Sony so I can't give an opinion one way or the other.

That said, you can probably pick up something like a pre-owned Oppo 83SE if you aren't averse to buying second hand, or have a listen to the newer Oppo 95. These two have upgraded DAC/analog outputs that may be a good fit to the Lexicon. Most people seem to prefer the sound from the analog outputs to HDMI. However, most of us still use HDMI because that maintains the signal in the digital domain while the AVR/P handles bass management and EQ. I don't know how the Lexicon handles EQ/bass management so it may or may not be a big deal to you.

If you have bucks to spare and want a modern, price no object, top of the line AVPre like the Lexicon, have a look at this:
http://www.krellonline.com/evolution707.html

(http://www.krellonline.com/assets/processors/707/fullsize/707-2_fs.jpg)

(http://www.krellonline.com/assets/processors/707/fullsize/707-3_fs.jpg)

:P
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: petetherock on April 05, 2011, 21:56
Hi,

Supposing I am using the Lexicon RV-8 receiver which does not have hdmi, how can I join in in these hdmi developments without changing my receiver? I heard there are certain wires you could buy. Thanks.

Bro welcome to XP

You have a very impressive legacy amp. Why partner it with a basic BR player.
If you intend to keep it, use a BR player with good analogue outputs such as the Oppo BDP 95.

But read the threads I have posted on the issues with multichannel inputs - just use the search button to find them.
I converted my old Marantz SR 12 to a power amp, and used a mid range AV amp as a processor. That allowed me to get the latest Audyssey calibration which you won't enjoy with the Lexicon.

If you are up the job of balancing the levels manually and calibrating them yourself (which perhaps you are since you have such a high end piece of equipment) then you can try it.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: landis1 on April 05, 2011, 22:38
absolutely love the obligatory ass-shot of the lexicon ;D
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: myspeaker on April 06, 2011, 16:43
Thank you for the replies! You people know so much about these things.

I read good reviews on the Oppo, but had several concerns: (1) e-commerce style of Oppo - shipping charges, warranty etc. (2) DVD region 1 and Blu-Ray region A only - and I'm not sure how to modify and whether modification will void the warranty (3) mandarin support (4) voltage given that product is from US.
Without these issues, I'll probably get an Oppo. Now, I'm looking at the Denon BDP2010. Lexicon has been trying to get me to use theirs but reviews say its a repackaged Oppo.  :)

Is the Krell a processor? I'm a little confused, for example, when Arcam calls the AVR-400, AVR-500 and AVR-600 as 'receivers' but calls the AVR-888 a 'processor', so I'm not sure what's the difference.

petertherock, when you say to choose a BR player with good analogue outputs, what details do you look for in the specification list to show that it' good?

Thanks all!
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: Doggie Howser on April 06, 2011, 17:42
Receivers are usually amps with tuners built in.

processors don't have amps. They are like pre-amps with processing and decoding for HT use.

Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: myspeaker on April 06, 2011, 17:51
I see. Thanks for the reply and giving my receiver a longer life with all these new hdmi developments.

Sorry for interrupting the hdmi topic.  ;)
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: petetherock on April 11, 2011, 01:36
There is no longer a 1.4 HDMI cable. But it is to opt for a better cable not so much because it will sound better but more that there is less chance of signal loss.

Monoprice USA makes decent cables and there are enough local shops which carry longer length cables. Just search this forum for more info.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: armoury on April 15, 2011, 11:28
I read good reviews on the Oppo, but had several concerns: (1) e-commerce style of Oppo - shipping charges, warranty etc. (2) DVD region 1 and Blu-Ray region A only - and I'm not sure how to modify and whether modification will void the warranty (3) mandarin support (4) voltage given that product is from US.
Without these issues, I'll probably get an Oppo. Now, I'm looking at the Denon BDP2010. Lexicon has been trying to get me to use theirs but reviews say its a repackaged Oppo.  :)

Oppo 93 and 95 are available at Audio Iconic, basement of Adelphi, so no warranty issues (83SE is discontinued, but second-hand ones are sometimes available).  With an added mod ($100), the Oppo becomes region-free for BD as well -- and this mod being done by AI does not affect warranty either.  Power supply I think is univesral anyway, but certainly there is no issue of 110V/220V.  Mandarin, I must admit I'm not sure, so you'll have to check the (lengthy) threads on the Oppo players.
Title: HDMI over 1000 feet?
Post by: petetherock on July 09, 2011, 09:57
http://www.rainbowfishcorp.com/Fiber-Optic-HDMI-Pro.html

Quote
Fiber Optic HDMI

Designed for commercial, studio and residential system contractors, the Rainbow Fish Fiber Optic HDMI Professional cable solves the problem of distance limitation for HDMI signal transfer. Rainbow Fish provides full HDMI signal integrity up to 1000 feet.

This is possible through the Rainbow Fish Fiber Optic HDMI technology which connects Rainbow Fish HDMI connectors via a precision glass fiber optic cable. Unlike conventional copper HDMI cables, the fiber optic cable is EMI-free and can transfer the full HDMI protocol over long distances.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: petetherock on September 20, 2011, 12:48
Just in case anyone thinks there are no specs on the definition of "high speed" and "normal":
http://www.hdmi.org/learningcenter/faq.aspx#49 (http://www.hdmi.org/learningcenter/faq.aspx#49)
Quote
What is the difference between a “Standard” HDMI cable and a “High-Speed” HDMI cable?Recently, HDMI Licensing, LLC announced that cables would be tested as Standard or High-Speed cables.
 
  • Standard (or “category 1”) HDMI cables have been tested to perform at speeds of 75Mhz or up to 2.25Gbps, which is the equivalent of a 720p/1080i signal.
  • High Speed (or “category 2”) HDMI cables have been tested to perform at speeds of 340Mhz or up to 10.2Gbps, which is the highest bandwidth currently available over an HDMI cable and can successfully handle 1080p signals including those at increased color depths and/or increased refresh rates from the Source. High-Speed cables are also able to accommodate higher resolution displays, such as WQXGA cinema monitors (resolution of 2560 x 1600).
More info on finding the right cable:
http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_1_4/finding_right_cable.aspx (http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_1_4/finding_right_cable.aspx)

Cheers
Title: Lengthy issues
Post by: petetherock on October 04, 2011, 18:13
HDMI - Lengthy issues

If anyone is considering Long lengths i.e. > 10m, do take note.

There ARE differences in quality, and the longer the lengths involved, the more significant the differences. I found this out personally when I ordered some 15m cables off ebay from UK and there were plenty of jaggies and audio dropouts.

The HDMI output voltage from the cheaper BR players can also differ, but the quality of the cable plays an important role at such lengths.

These were basic and rather thin looking. I then got a 15m length from LHS for $170, and this one looks sturdy and the picture quality was good.  For 15m it works out to be slightly more than $10/m, which is good value in anyone's books. For anyone baulking at the cost, consider that companies like QED, IXOS etc charge more than that for a 2-3m length.

(http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x244/petetherock/Hi%20Fi/IMG_2594.jpg)


Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: petetherock on December 01, 2011, 22:31
Sparkies :

(http://news.cnet.com/i/tim/2011/04/24/Sparkles_Bad.jpg)
This usually happens on long cable runs, but check your cable, it may be of poor quality, or the run is too long.

However certain equipment can boost the signal or tweak their cable settings to avoid this to some degree, eg the Mitsubishi HC 4000 projector.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: petetherock on January 06, 2012, 15:20
Thanks to a recent introduction of a cable by Francis, the shops in Singapore and even our sales threads have become a little more quiet... 8)

Bear in mind, that if you are on a 1.3 system and have no intention of going 3D, what you have is likely to suffice, unless you get upgraditis...

A ABX test will be need soon to confirm the wonders of Aiborg!
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: econav on January 07, 2012, 14:20
Aiborg G3000 is a cost effective on good bult connector vs G2800 , we have seen compare LA , pacific and Aiborg with same lenght of cable and found G3000 is a good buy.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: econav on January 11, 2012, 00:56
here we go again HDMI ver2 in 6 months time ;D
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: petetherock on January 18, 2012, 23:39
HDMI can be as unpredictable as a woman... stick things in the wrong sequence and you don't get things turned on...

Using the wrong version (the current one is High Speed aka 1.4) and you won't get an image either...

Using some propriety system like Viera and she doesn't like it either.

So to trouble shoot your HDMI chain, try various combinations of switching on the equipment
Make sure your cables are up to date
If it is a long connection, use better cables

And be a little circumspect about the differences in HDMI cables too. Make sure the volumes are equalised before making claims about sonic improvements as differences in the levels can be interpreted as improvements...


Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: landis1 on January 19, 2012, 08:48
HDMI can be as unpredictable as a woman... stick things in the wrong sequence and you don't get things turned on...

i choked on my breakfast when i read this. funny ;D
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: petetherock on July 15, 2012, 12:51
HDMI can be as unpredictable as a woman... stick things in the wrong sequence and you don't get things turned on...

Using the wrong version (the current one is High Speed aka 1.4) and you won't get an image either...

Using some propriety system like Viera and she doesn't like it either.

So to trouble shoot your HDMI chain, try various combinations of switching on the equipment
Make sure your cables are up to date
If it is a long connection, use better cables


Also there is a bit of HDMI cable voodoo when turning things on.
Usually I turn on the amp, the TV then the player... otherwise you need to switch inputs then come back to the original for things to be set right..
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: francis wu on July 15, 2012, 13:47
I do the opposite, TV then BDP follow by the Amp.  When turning off, Amp, BDP and then TV.  So far, no problem with syn!
Title: Re: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: desray on July 15, 2012, 14:21
I do the opposite, TV then BDP follow by the Amp.  When turning off, Amp, BDP and then TV.  So far, no problem with syn!

I think as long as it works...the sequence of startup doesn't matter. :)

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: petetherock on July 15, 2012, 19:26
The other thing is HDMI cables and the input sockets do not like to be put under stress. Then problems will occur.

So if you are bending or flexing the cable hard, get a less stiff cable or consider an extender like this:
(make sure it is also HDMI 1.4)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/414Hoz0XMtL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0069A6K6I/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i01
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: matix on July 31, 2012, 22:42
After reading this thread I still do not quite understand how I can get perfect 3D picture on my newly acquired Sony HW30 and Oppo 95 without a cable switch. I was lamenting the chore to change cables and was surprised my existing 22AWG cable from monoprice works.  It is what one will call a standard cable as opposed to a high speed one needed for 3D? I am wondering if I should still change cable as I may be missing out on something.  Is it because I am not using an AV amp and that is why the standard cable still work?
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: n3wk1d on August 01, 2012, 08:19
As long as your cable is v1.3 and above, they can do 3d already.
High speed maybe required if your cable length stretch longer.

Normal cable even with high speed required higher gauge cable which in turn become very stff and small bending radius. If you are planning to change your cable for whatever reason, try out the monoprice new breed of cables with Redmere. Even at 28awg it can stretch up to 16m. There will be 42awg and 32awg cables which is something like your keyboard or mouse cable.

Real or not, i'm not sure but the signal test from normal hdmi cable and cable with Redmere shows significant difference. Whether it can be seen by our bare eyes is another issue, maybe some bro here with special eyes can detect the difference even with a slight color difference?

http://www.audioholics.com:8080/education/cables/redmere-active-hdmi-mea1689
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: MrShane on January 25, 2013, 03:21
Hi! Wow I believe I have found someone that can help me finally... Mr. Pete the rock or anyone else, After 4 years of getting parts I am ready to enter the higher end audio world! I have a 7.1 Infinity Beta speaker setup with the hps1000 sub and I got a crazy deal this week for two nice receivers (I think) The Harman AVR7550HD (retail 3K) and the Lexicon RV-8 (retail 7K) for $2000 total. The 7550hd has HDMI, audyssey, all the HD decoding, and two 32 bit Texas Instrument Aureus processors. The Lexicon which im guessing is better has two sharc hammerhead processors but no hdmi. I haven't seen anything that would get hd sound to the Lexicon, could I send pre-out's from the 7550hd to the lexicon analog in's? Looks like it's a 7.1 but only 5.1 possibility with analog in? Any work arounds or ideas? And then I don't know where the processing starts and ends and if I could somehow frankenstein these two together? Any thoughts or opinions would be amazing!!! I wanna try the Lexicon but would I be sacrificing too much in the way of HD sound? I will probably find out I need to buy more equipment haha. THANKS SO VERY MUCH IF YOU CAN HELP
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: petetherock on January 25, 2013, 06:44
Hi! Wow I believe I have found someone that can help me finally... Mr. Pete the rock or anyone else, After 4 years of getting parts I am ready to enter the higher end audio world! I have a 7.1 Infinity Beta speaker setup with the hps1000 sub and I got a crazy deal this week for two nice receivers (I think) The Harman AVR7550HD (retail 3K) and the Lexicon RV-8 (retail 7K) for $2000 total. The 7550hd has HDMI, audyssey, all the HD decoding, and two 32 bit Texas Instrument Aureus processors. The Lexicon which im guessing is better has two sharc hammerhead processors but no hdmi. I haven't seen anything that would get hd sound to the Lexicon, could I send pre-out's from the 7550hd to the lexicon analog in's? Looks like it's a 7.1 but only 5.1 possibility with analog in? Any work arounds or ideas? And then I don't know where the processing starts and ends and if I could somehow frankenstein these two together? Any thoughts or opinions would be amazing!!! I wanna try the Lexicon but would I be sacrificing too much in the way of HD sound? I will probably find out I need to buy more equipment haha. THANKS SO VERY MUCH IF YOU CAN HELP

Welcome to XP


The Lexicon is a 2004 AV amp, and if you think having 2 Sharc DSP chips is a big deal, the 4311 has 2 as well. For 2k I would suggest you consider a newer model with Audyssey or one of the other auto-eq systems, especially since you are a novice at this.
The amps in this are potentially better,  but in your case, I don't really think these are big bargains, if you are keen on HT. You will need a lot of effort to setup them up.

The Harman AVR7550HD maybe a better option with HDMI 1.3 built in. I wouldn't try to combine the two. If HT is important, the auto-setup function is essential for newbies, unless you are willing to spend time and effort to calibrate yourself.

Read the manuals, and our stickies and make use of the search button, as there is a lot posted in our forum already.

Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: BigHammer on February 24, 2013, 01:31
Hi, I'm a newbie in HT setup. Would like to find out will a good quality HDMI cable improve picture n sound quality? Thanks
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: petetherock on February 24, 2013, 08:10
IMO the key is signal degradation.. So for short lengths most cables are fine, but if you are running 10 m or so, get a better one. Monoprice is good value, and Aiborg is quite popular too. See the sales thread for people who can supply them to you.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: BigHammer on February 25, 2013, 01:32
Thanks for the advice. Means if running in short length (2m), a $20 and $200 HDMI cable wouldn't make a difference?
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 1.4
Post by: louco73 on February 25, 2013, 08:59
Thanks for the advice. Means if running in short length (2m), a $20 and $200 HDMI cable wouldn't make a difference?

Yes. If you are going to be removing and inserting the cable all the time, or putting a load on the cable (think of a cable pulled down by gravity from a projector) then the quality of the connector/connection is far more important than the supposed benefits of the cable itself.

As Pete says, getting into longer lengths does require that you get a good cable, but you still don't need to spend a ridiculous amount.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: petetherock on September 04, 2013, 22:25
http://www.engadget.com/2013/09/04/hdmi-2-0-official-4k-60fps-32-channel-audio/

 
(http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2009/05/hdmi-1.4-specification-cabl.jpg) (http://www.engadget.com/2013/09/04/hdmi-2-0-official-4k-60fps-32-channel-audio/)
Only just after it leaked (http://www.engadget.com/2013/09/04/panasonic-ifa-4k-hdmi-2.0-wt600-leak/#comments) out, the folks at HDMI Licensing are announcing HDMI 2.0 officially. Arriving just in time for the wide rollout of a new generation of Ultra HDTVs, it adds a few key capabilities to the connection standard (http://www.engadget.com/topics/hd/2009/01/06/the-next-generation-of-hdmi-actually-adds-some-welcomed-features/). With a bandwidth capacity of up to 18Gbps, it has enough room to carry 3,840 x 2,160 resolution video at up to 60fps. It also has support for up to 32 audio channels, "dynamic auto lipsync" and additional CEC extensions. The connector itself is unchanged, which is good for backwards compatibility but may disappoint anyone hoping for something sturdier to support all of those suddenly-popular (http://www.engadget.com/2013/07/25/chromecast-netflix/) dongles (http://www.engadget.com/2013/08/30/sony-chromecast-google-tv-nsz-gu1-fcc-pictures/). The cables won't change either, as the group claims current high-speed Category 2 wires can handle the increased bandwidth. Some companies have suggested upgrade paths for their UHDTVs already on the market -- hopefully we'll find out more about those plans this week at IFA 2013.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: petetherock on March 21, 2014, 08:15
Just a sharing a tip :
Do not hot swop the HDMI cable as it carries current.


HDMI has power in it, like USB, but unlike USB, HDMI plugs can short when hot plugging them, sending current to bits that were never designed for it ... Usually it results in a blown HDMI PCI Board.

That can be expensive to replace.. so if you do so, that may be the reason behind all those spoilt HDMI boards..
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: desray on March 21, 2014, 22:08
Just a sharing a tip :
Do not hot swop the HDMI cable as it carries current.


HDMI has power in it, like USB, but unlike USB, HDMI plugs can short when hot plugging them, sending current to bits that were never designed for it ... Usually it results in a blown HDMI PCI Board.

That can be expensive to replace.. so if you do so, that may be the reason behind all those spoilt HDMI boards..

+1.  Be Careful.


Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: gs11tan on March 22, 2014, 15:54
 I think i already got two casualties, one is my sony bluray  player  550 and the other is my Toshiba  Lcd TV .
 Be careful, don't say we didn't warn you.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: petetherock on April 09, 2014, 06:37
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1523994/hdmi-2-0-cedia-webinar

Some info on Hdmi 2.0:



HDMI 2.0 CEDIA Webinar
HDMI 2.0 CEDIA Webinar

#1 of 141
16 days ago
Scott Wilkinson
Newsbreaker
Last week, I attended a webinar hosted by CEDIA (Custom Electronics Design and Installation Association) called "HDMI 2.0: A Look Into the Standard." The presenters were Steve Venuti, President of HDMI LLC; Jeff Park, Technical Specification Manager of HDMI, LLC; and Michael Heiss, CE industry consultant and jolly-good CEDIA Fellow as well as chair of the CEDIA Technology Council.
 
I didn't learn much that I don't already know, but it was a good reminder that the version number doesn't mean much other than a list of possible features that manufacturers might or might not implement. That's why HDMI Licensing wants companies to indicate what HDMI features they have included in their products rather than simply touting "HDMI 2.0." That number refers only to the specification that defines what features are supported, not what must be implemented.
 
HDMI 2.0 ups the maximum bandwidth from 10.2 gigabits per second to 18 Gbps, which can be carried on existing high-speed HDMI-certified cables. However, extenders, boosters, and any other electronics in the HDMI signal chain—including Redmere booster chips and HDBaseT—probably can't support that bitrate without a hardware upgrade.
 
The increase in bandwidth is made possible by a new, more efficient signaling method. Even better, the interface uses the previous signaling method for traffic below 10.2 Gbps, then kicks in the new signaling above that, which means it's completely backward compatible with HDMI 1.4 devices.
 
New features supported by HDMI 2.0 include the ability to transmit 4K video at 50 and 60 frames per second (with some limitations, which I'll get to in a moment) and up to 32 channels of audio with a sample rate up to 1536 kHz. Also, new commands have been added to CEC (Consumer Electronics Control, the ability to control multiple connected devices from one remote), and all commands must be implemented rather than being optional as in previous versions—a welcome requirement even if it flies in the face of HDMI's otherwise feature-optional paradigm. Other features include support for the Rec.2020 color space, dual viewing (two programs displayed on the same TV and isolated for each viewer with glasses, much like 3D), multi-stream audio, dynamic auto lip-sync, and the 21:9 aspect ratio.

HDMI 2.0 adds many new features to the HDMI spec. (Graphic from HDMI Licensing, LLC)
 
As I said earlier, HDMI 2.0 can handle 4K/UHD at 50 and 60 frames per second, but there are some limitations—in particular, in the bit depth and level of color subsampling it can convey. For those who are unfamiliar with color subsampling, it's a type of data compression in which some color pixels are discarded from a component-video signal and reconstructed by the display. It's specified as a series of three numbers—the most common schemes are 4:4:4, 4:2:2, and 4:2:0. Because color subsampling applies to component-video signals, the first number refers to the black-and-white pixels, while the second and third numbers refer to the color-difference pixels.
 
With 4:4:4, no color pixels are discarded, while 4:2:2 discards half the color pixels, and 4:2:0 discards 75% of the color pixels, which reduces storage and transmission-bandwidth requirements. However, the less color subsampling that is used, the better the image quality, especially in terms of clean transitions between colors. Amazingly, Blu-ray uses 4:2:0 and still manages to achieve great picture quality.
 
Using 4:2:0 color subsampling, HDMI 2.0 can convey 4K/UHD at 50/60 fps with up to 16 bits of resolution per color. This provides tremendous dynamic range—far more than the current HD system, which uses 8-bit resolution. If the color subsampling is 4:2:2, HDMI 2.0 can accommodate up to 12 bits of resolution for 4K/UHD at 50/60 fps. And at 4:4:4, HDMI 2.0 is limited to 8 bits for 4K/UHD at 50/60 fps. This presents a conundrum for video-content creators and consumers, who want the best possible specs all around.
 

As more data is transmitted, the bandwidth requirements increase. Notice how much bandwidth is required for 8K (4320/60p) at 4:4:4 with 12-bit resolution—far more than HDMI 2.0 can support! (Graphic from HDMI Licensing, LLC)
 
I suspect—hope, actually—that the UHD system will settle on 4:2:2 at 12-bit resolution, but that is far from certain at this point. A resolution greater than 8 bits is critical to support a higher dynamic range without visible banding, which is even more important than the increased number of pixels in my opinion. And less-aggressive color subsampling will yield sharper transitions between colors.
 
HDMI 2.0 also supports the Rec.2020 specification, which includes a much wider color gamut than the current Rec.709. This allows content and displays to accurately reproduce many more colors than today's Blu-rays and HDTVs.
 

Rec.2020 specifies a much larger color gamut than the current standard of Rec.709. (Graphic from HDMI Licensing, LLC)
 
Many people ask me about alternatives to HDMI—in particular, DisplayPort. As you can see in the following table, DisplayPort 1.2 does offer a somewhat higher overall bandwidth than HDMI 2.0, and much higher Ethernet bandwidth. It also transmits some power and USB communications. DisplayPort is common in the world of computers, but HDMI is so entrenched in the consumer-electronics industry that I doubt it will ever be replaced by DisplayPort. HDBaseT also carries power and USB along with HDMI signals, but its overall bandwidth is the same as HDMI 1.4 until its hardware is upgraded.
 

DisplayPort 1.2 offers a bit more overall bandwidth, but HDMI is too entrenched in the CE industry to be supplanted. (Graphic from HDMI Licensing, LLC) 
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: bluepill193 on April 16, 2014, 16:06
Guys the existing AVRs on the market, can they handle HDMI 2.0?
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: eggz on April 16, 2014, 17:34
Guys the existing AVRs on the market, can they handle HDMI 2.0?

Nope. I think there's still no mainstream ASIC supporting HDMI 2.0
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: petetherock on April 16, 2014, 18:00
Guys the existing AVRs on the market, can they handle HDMI 2.0?
No, that's why the HDMI 2.0 standard is something I would watch rather than jump into... even TV companies claiming their TVs are 2.0 compliant are not sure that the standard won't change..

So if you are not in a hurry, watch this page...
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: petetherock on May 12, 2014, 09:27
Some links to useful info on HDMI 2.0.
Bottom line, don't throw away your current 1.4 cables:

http://www.digitaltrends.com/home-theater/hdmi-2-0-explained/#!Ms9jx (http://www.digitaltrends.com/home-theater/hdmi-2-0-explained/#!Ms9jx)

http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_2_0/hdmi_2_0_faq.aspx#119 (http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_2_0/hdmi_2_0_faq.aspx#119)
 What’s new in HDMI 2.0?HDMI 2.0 significantly increases bandwidth to 18Gbps and includes the following advanced features: Keep your current gear and don't panic if most of the above doesn't apply to you..
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: petetherock on May 12, 2014, 09:34
(http://cdn.avsforum.com/1/1b/900x900px-LL-1be45706_HDMI2-Features.jpeg)
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: desray on May 12, 2014, 13:25
Yeap... Cables can remain as along as it is HDMI 1.4 but can't say the same for hardware. You need to upgrade your existing video chain like AVR, VP, Bluray player and display output to take advantage of the slew of benefits of HDMI 2.0.

Sent from my Galaxy Note 3

Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: petetherock on May 12, 2014, 13:34
Yeap... Cables can remain as along as it is HDMI 1.4 but can't say the same for hardware. You need to upgrade your existing video chain like AVR, VP, Bluray player and display output to take advantage of the slew of benefits of HDMI 2.0.

Well there lies the main point for members to consider:
Do we Need those features?
Manufacturers need to move boxes, if there is no sales, there's no profit.
If one has an existing amp / BR player bought within the last one or two years, most of the desired features are there.

Unless one is in the market for a new amp, TV etc within the next year, it may be useful to consider HDMI 2.0.

Otherwise unless the buyer is a cutting edge hobbyist, then most of the features don't apply for now.

Some companies are still producing HDMI 1.4 amps or still in the development stage ;)

And with a double HDMI out on the BR player, you can enjoy 4k on a new HDMI 2.0 equipped TV whilst retaining most of your existing gear.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: petetherock on June 26, 2014, 00:08
As the new 2014 amps come on line, it will be interesting to see which amp truly offers HDMI 2.0. Many offer some form of the specs, but when one delves into the details, you see a few discrepancies.

So it remains to be seen if the 2014 amps need any firmware updates after the initial purchase..
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: petetherock on June 28, 2014, 11:02
An interesting post from Pioneer:


http://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/1568170-pioneer-sc-lx88-9-2-ch-dolby-amos-hdmi-2-0-a-13.html#post25319465

Quote
Yep 17 pages... Alot of marketing speak in the front, however towards the back there is some good technical information....
 
 Regarding HDCP 2.2, none of our AVR's support it this year. Pioneer (As well as Denon and Yamaha) opted for full bandwidth HDMI 2.0 (18gbps) so that we can support 4:4:4 content as well as high dynamic range and expanded color gamut signals which require more that 10.2gbps. There currently is not a single chip solution that offers both 18gbps and HDCP 2.2. Onkyo decided to go with HDCP 2.2 by using a different brand HDMI repeater, however there HDMI 2.0 solution only offers 10.2gbps of bandwidth (Same has HDMI 1.4).
 
 Another reason was the lack of HDCP 2.2 source hardware. The only piece I am aware of is the Sony 4K server which also does additional checks to make sure it is connected to a Sony TV in order to work.
 
 Chris Walker
 Pioneer Electronics
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: petetherock on June 28, 2014, 11:08
http://hdguru.com/three-must-have-4k-tv-features/


Quote
   Three Must-Have 4K TV Features March 19th, 2014 · 3 Comments (http://hdguru.com/three-must-have-4k-tv-features/#comments) · 3D HDTV (http://hdguru.com/category/3d-hdtv/), 4K Flat Panel (http://hdguru.com/category/4k-flat-panel/), 4K LED LCD (http://hdguru.com/category/4k-led-lcd/), Blu-ray Players (http://hdguru.com/category/blu-ray-players/), Connected TVs (http://hdguru.com/category/connected-tvs/), HDMI (http://hdguru.com/category/hdmi/), LED LCD Flat Panels (http://hdguru.com/category/led-lcd-flat-panels/), News (http://hdguru.com/category/news/), UHDTV (http://hdguru.com/category/uhdtv/)  (http://hdguru.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Logos-small.jpg) (http://hdguru.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Logos-small.jpg)
Update 3/22/14
Are you considering buying a 4K Ultra HD Television? Here’s a tip: There are 3 technologies that any UHDTV must incorporate to display forthcoming 4K content. If your new set lacks any of these, you’ll at best be able to view 4K at a lower resolution or frame rate. The worst case scenario? You won’t be able to view it at all. Learn the details after the break.

The three features that are vital for viewing forthcoming 4K content from Netflix, Blu-ray, Satellite/Cable and elsewhere are HDMI 2.0, HDCP 2.2 and HEVC.
HDMI 2.0 is the latest version of the High-definition Multimedia Interface. Version 2.0 is backward-compatible with all previous HDMI versions. According to the HDMI organization, 2.0 supports up to 60 fps (frames-per-second) content at 3840 x 2160 resolution. On the audio side, it permits up to 32 channels, 1536-kHz sampling and up to simultaneous streams for multiple users. Other features include simultaneous delivery of dual video streams on the same display; support for 21:9 aspect ratio content and displays; dynamic synchronization of video and audio streams; and expanded command and control.
While UHD content shot at 60 fps doesn’t exist yet (a few PC games excepted), that format is expected to be used for future UHD sports content. However, if your set isn’t HDMI 2.0-capable, you will be limited to viewing UHD at a maximum of 30 fps. Content recorded on film, a medium with sufficient resolution to be converted to UHD, will remain at 24 fps, though it’s anticipated that movies shot with Ultra HD cameras will eventually migrate to 60 fps.
HDCP 2.2 (High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection) is the latest version of the encryption/decryption scheme used by HDMI to prevent copying of audio/video content as it travels from a source through additional devices (an A/V receiver, for example). At present, there is no content containing HDCP 2.2 encryption, though we expect that next-generation 4K Blu-ray discs and players will use it.
While we have yet to get our hands on any HDCP 2.2-equipped gear, we anticipate that some compatibility issues might arise when routing a HDCP 2.2 source like Blu-ray through an HDMI 1.4 or earlier A/V receiver or video switcher.
 
HEVC stands for High Efficiency Video Coding (also known as H.265). HEVC is said to be about twice as efficient as MPEG-4 coding, which in turn means a higher compression ratio for more manageable streaming of native 4K content. Netflix has already announced that it will provide HEVC-compressed 4K programming to subscribers starting this spring. But here’s the catch: UHDTVs that lack HEVC decoding won’t be able to display 4K content using the set’s built-in app, and will instead require an external HEVC-capable media receiver.
3/22/14 Note: An LG spokesperson informed hdguru via email that its 2013 LA9650 and LA9700 series  US models contain HEVC decoding.
 
Danger in the Past
Looking over the UHDTVs that came out in 2013, only Panasonic’s TC-L65WT600 shipped with HDMI 2.0 inputs, while Sony provided an HDMI 2.0 upgrade for its sets either via a new circuit board or an Internet-delivered firmware upgrade. There aren’t any 2013 UHDTVs we’re aware of that can be upgraded internally to support either HDCP 2.2 or HEVC, though Samsung promises such an upgrade via its 2014 OneConnect, an external box that will also feature HDMI 2.0 connections. Pricing and availability for the 2014 OneConnect is expected to be announced later this week at a Samsung press event.
For 2014, Sony, Samsung, Panasonic, LG, Sharp, Toshiba and Vizio are all expected to feature HDMI 2.0, HDCP 2.2 and HEVC in their respective UHDTVs. We are still waiting to hear if the lower-tier brands like TCL, Seiki and Hisense will provide these crucial features when their new 4K models are released. We’ll be sure to post an update once we learn more.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: petetherock on June 28, 2014, 11:15
I found this interesting info on Sony 4k TV owners, that may be pertinent to all potential 4k TV owners:

http://community.sony.com/t5/4K-Ultra-HD-TV/Upgrade-to-2-0-HDMI-only-if-you/td-p/152453


Quote
I find it very disappointing, that Sony will upgrade your 4K TV with the needed 2.0 HDMI ONLY if you purchase their new Sony FMP-X1 4K Ultra HD Media Player. I just paid thousands of $$$$ dollars for my XBR-65X900A and purchased a Sony BDPS790 3D Blu-ray Player, only to be told by Sony Tech Support I can have my 4K TV upgraded ONLY if I purchase the new FMP-X1. 
 
I am very dissipointed in that response and in Sony's customer relations regarding this issue.
 

This information is correct, The 4K Activation process is not adding HDMI 2.0 but instead adding HDCP 2.2 compatibility which is the Digital Content Protection specification required by the 4K Media Player.  My apologies for the confusion.



So there are HDMI issues and HDCP issues to consider with the new amps / TV / sources...
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: petetherock on June 28, 2014, 11:17
More.... confusion?


http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=8942393&postcount=2

Quote
This means first generation and second generation 4K QUAD HD displays that lack the HDCP 2.2 copy protection feature will not be able to play native 4K content at 4K quality. Instead the older 4K Quad HD displays will either have a black screen or play the 4K programs at the lower 1080P quality depending on what the content provider decides.
 
 If the 4K content providers are strict and enforce HDCP 2.2 copy protection compliant products, then the first generation 4K QUAD HD displays that use passive glasses are only good for playing 1080P 3-D Blu-ray movies using passive glasses.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: racs on September 05, 2014, 20:37
Anyone using Tartan hdmi cable? Price is reasonable I tink. Looking for 25ft hdmi. Is this ok?
http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/hdmi-cables/hdmi-cable.htm

Looks like 24 AWG is recommended for longer runs..
Anyone got from blue jeans cable?

FAQ for TArtan
http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/hdmi-cables/tartan-hdmi-cables.htm#faq
Title: HDMI 2.0
Post by: francis wu on September 11, 2014, 14:31
Here's a link on the review of the HDMI 2....
http://wj28d.wap.blog.163.com/w2/blogDetail.do;jsessionid=D33E7401CEEF1461946FCF206255C710.blog84-8010?blogId=fks_087071081095087065081084080064072087082067085082080067093086&showRest=true&p=2&hostID=wj28d

Well, hype or not, will get a pair to try it out.  Stay tuned :)
Title: Re: HDMI 2.0
Post by: desray on September 11, 2014, 19:39
Bro, I would rather you post the direct link (regardless the original language) than to post a "half-baked" translation that does not make any bit of sense. ???
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: Audio on September 12, 2014, 09:46
I actually bought the 3 pieces of the Palic HDMI 2.0 4K cables at the HK show.  The copper ones, not the silver wires ones which cost signicantly higher.  The good thing about them is the locking clip at the HDMI connectors.  I have been using them, no issues, so far.

(Audio)
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: petetherock on October 07, 2014, 21:11
Interesting info:
http://www.audioholics.com/hdtv-formats/hdmi-2.0-hdcp-2.2

Quote
HDMI 2.0 The last version of HDMI was 1.4. This allowed data transfers of up to 10.2Gbps. Version 1.4 also added 3D support, Audio Return Channel, and a few other features over previous versions. The largest change in HDMI Version 2.0 is the increase in the amount of data that can be sent. Version 2.0 can transfer up to 18Gbps. While HDMI 1.4 allowed up to 4k resolutions (Ultra HD or 4k), it was limited to 24 frames per second. The increased bandwidth of Version 2.0 allows full 4k at 50 or 60 frames per second.
While 24 frames per second is fine for watching films, video games often require higher frame rates. On top of that, the additional bandwidth allows for other advancements like:
 10 and 12-bit color Version 1.4 had an 8-bit color maximum. The increased bit-depth allows for more colors to be displayed. While 8-bit allowed for 16.7 million colors, 12-bit allows for closer to 70 billion. Better color is obviously a good thing.
 Dual Video Streams HDMI 2.0 allows for two video streams to be sent to the same screen (1080p) along with audio. While this sounds like a terrible idea, it works well when coupled with 3D glasses. One person would see one image while the other would see a second. For gaming, this allows two people to use the same screen without having to split the screen. Those that like racing or sport games will immediately recognize the advantage of keeping you screen private from the person you are playing against.
 Up to 32 Channels of Audio HDMI 1.4 maxed out at 8 channels of audio without the use of lossy compression. With Dolby Atmos and other multichannel solutions on the way from Auro and DTS, having more audio channels will become very important. HDMI 2.0 can support up to 32 channels of audio. The quality of the audio stream has also increased up to a maximum of 1536 kHz (48 kHz sampling rate per channel for the full 32 channels). This easily supports high-def audio in more modest multichannel system.
 HDMI CEC HDMI 2.0 promises a revamping of the HDMI CEC. CEC promised to control all our devices with one remote through the HDMI connection. Our experience with HDMI CEC has been spotty at best and everything we've read from others agrees. A CEC retooling could make this feature actually useful. Hopefully.
 No New Cables Most importantly, HDMI 2.0 makes all these changes without requiring users to buy new cables. Unfortunately, currently HDMI 1.4 ports can't be firmware upgraded to HDMI 2.0. That means if you have a device with 1.4, you'll be limited by it until you upgrade everything in your signal chain. This becomes important as we explore what HDCP 2.2 brings to the table.
 HDCP 2.2 If you do want 4k content, every device in your video chain must have HDCP 2.2. HDCP stands for High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection. HDCP requires that each HDMI connection establish a unique link between the two devices, often called a handshake. This "handshake" trades encrypted codes between the devices so that you can't plug your Blu-ray player into a recorder and rip a copy. Many of the problems that we hear people having with their HDMI devices comes from this handshake failing.
HDCP 2.2 is all about protecting 4k content. That means if you want to stick with 1080p for the time being, you don't have to worry about HDCP 2.2. If you do want 4k content, every device in your video chain must have HDCP 2.2. This will be true in the future where content will be HDCP 2.2 encrypted. Non-2.2 encrypted content will not apply.
The problem we've seen is that people are assuming that anything with HDMI 2.0 will have HDCP 2.2. So far, that has not been the case. Our research has shown that there are no devices currently offered that have both a full HDMI 2.0 implementation and HDCP 2.2.
Right now, if you've bought (or are thinking of buying) a new receiver from the likes of Denon, Marantz, and Yamaha, you may see HDMI 2.0 on the specification sheet. This is a full 18Gbps HDMI 2.0 port meaning you can realize all the additional benefits of HDMI 2.0. But they don't have HDCP 2.2 so future content may or may not be limited.
On the flip side, new Onkyo receivers are listed with HDCP 2.2. What they aren't telling you is that the HDMI 2.0 implementation is limited to 10.2Gbps (just like HDMI 1.4). While this allows the Onkyo receiver to pass the HDCP 2.2 handshake, it will limit how much data can be passed, negating many of the benefits of HDMI 2.0.
 If the device does NOT show HDCP 2.2 compatibility, when native 4k content arrives, your device will not accept it. If you are shopping for a 4k display, you'll want to look for HDCP 2.2 compatibility as well as resolution and bit depth. Match the display's capabilities with the HDMI 2.0 maximums, and you should be good to go. If the display does NOT show HDCP 2.2 compatibility, when native 4k content arrives, your display will not accept it. On receivers, you'll want to check how many of their inputs/outputs are HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2 enabled. Right now, manufacturers are limiting the maximum number to decrease costs. With limited bandwidth on some HDMI 2.0 terminals and lack of HDCP 2.2 on others, you may have to send video directly from your Blu-ray player to your display (bypassing your receiver) if you buy one of the first generation HDMI 2.0 receivers.
 Conclusion HDCP 2.2 must be on a HDMI 2.0 terminal but not all HDMI connections support the full HDMI 2.0 spec. It is a confusing time as HDMI 2.0 is only now hitting the market. In a year or two, HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2 will be ubiquitous. For now, consumers need to purchase with care lest they end up with a device that will become obsolete when native 4k content arrives.  If you truly care about native 4k, then make sure ALL of your equipment that you plan on transmitting it through has the hardware support.  If the new HDTV or AV Receiver you are contemplating on buying now doesn't support HDCP 2.2, you may want to hold off for the next product cycle which is usually 8-10 months for AV receivers and HDTV's.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: francishuang on October 07, 2014, 21:34
i guess i will wait for end 2015  for big ticket upgrades
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: desray on October 07, 2014, 23:00
Yes, the crux of the problem lies with the 4K industry - the manner in which 4K content is broadcast (say via cable like Netflix or Vudu) which on specs requires HDCP2.2 for transmission as well as the DRM equivalent for playback on 4K display when the new 4K bluray standards kick in...There is a good chance that most of the existing 4K UHD display - be it Projector or UHD TV may not have the capability to decode HDCP2.2 properly and as it appears that HDCP2.2 requires a change in hardware component to support it IIRC. One thing is for certain...there will be a lot of pissed-off early 4K adopters and guess what I AM ONE OF THEM!
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: petetherock on October 08, 2014, 02:30
Well one way to look at this: only Sony has hdcp 2.2 right now, and by the time 4k really kicks in, you would have upgraded already :)
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: desray on October 08, 2014, 06:57
Well one way to look at this: only Sony has hdcp 2.2 right now, and by the time 4k really kicks in, you would have upgraded already :)

FWIW none of the latest AV Receivers have HDCP2.2 except Onkyo...this may pose a problem for average users intending to use AV Receiver as a switcher for connecting to their 4K display. Of course, the workaround is to implement another separate HDMI output with full HDCP2.2 specs - just like Oppo did for its range of bluray players.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: Doggie Howser on October 08, 2014, 07:01
Wasn't there a rumour the AV8802 and Denon AVR equivalent would have both HDCP2.2 and the high bandwidth?
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: petetherock on October 08, 2014, 07:14
What I meant was only Sony has implemented hdcp 2.2 in their 4k player..
Yes it seems that the higher end models may get the chip...
I am a little annoyed at this state... Imagine a newly released amp that faces this issue... Nuts
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: Hass on October 08, 2014, 10:21
how about cables? does the current HDMI 1.4 cable between player/AVR and display needs to be changed to HDMI 2.0 cables to display 4K/60fps & 12 bit colors?
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: desray on October 08, 2014, 13:12

how about cables? does the current HDMI 1.4 cable between player/AVR and display needs to be changed to HDMI 2.0 cables to display 4K/60fps & 12 bit colors?

Yes if ur display is able to support higher color gamut depth and if you want to playback 4K material at 60fps.

At present, I dun see the need to rush and get a HDMI 2.0 cable since the 4K industry and standards still quite hazy and uncertain. Sigh...
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: Hass on October 08, 2014, 15:03
i just spent over few days redoing my wiring & change layout... if need to change hdmi cable within 1 year.. really waste effort. I dont have 4k stuffs now but looking forward to change hopeful around xmas if got good deals
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: racs on October 08, 2014, 16:05
Is there such thing as hdmi 2.0 cable? hdmi 2.0 port yes but not the cable...

http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_2_0/hdmi_2_0_faq.aspx#144

http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_2_0/hdmi_2_0_faq.aspx#123

For now where got such thing as hdmi 2.0 cable....
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: francis wu on October 08, 2014, 16:12
Oh yes, check Palic 2.0 hdmi model Jade 3100. :)
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: racs on October 08, 2014, 16:57
bro, theres no such thing as hdmi cables with version eg. 1.3, 1.4, 2.0 for cables..  ;D the version is more on the hdmi port from the hardware. HDMI Cables type u can get is as below... please spare some time and click the ink below  8)

http://www.hdmi.org/consumer/finding_right_cable.aspx

if u want the best get the high speed/ high speed w ethernet also labeled as category 2.
The thing u have to worry is the high speed can be supported up to how many feet long.

Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: francis wu on October 08, 2014, 17:35
Haha, well I m not going argue with you if you think there is no such thing as HDMI V2.0.  Got luck in your search for a good high speed with Ethernet labelled as cat 2...cheers ;D
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: racs on October 08, 2014, 18:57
Haha, well I m not going argue with you if you think there is no such thing as HDMI V2.0.  Got luck in your search for a good high speed with Ethernet labelled as cat 2...cheers ;D

Well im not arguing with u either... I just quote what the hdmi.org tells me if i understand it right. Blue jeans cable also explain to me too... but i cant find anything on google about ur palic 3100 only 3000 and they even never state wat u say hdmi 2.0 cable. Not much info either...
http://www.palic.com.au/productview.asp?pid=3
I'm trying to understand about these hdmi cable... not arguing... Your say is just like those typical salesman at sim lim trying to convince the buyer without any proof... This is a forum so lets discuss.. If im wrong... show me the right info and I learn..
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: petetherock on October 08, 2014, 23:45
There's a way around it...
Have a dual HDMI BR player, pass audio to the Amp, and viddeo with HDCP 2.2 to the TV... but since no one has done this yet, it's difficult to know if this will truly work..
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: desray on October 09, 2014, 07:21
For the HDMI cable versioning...it can get quite confusing at times. FWIW there are "indeed" so-called HDMI 2.0 cables selling in the internet like Amazon etc...(like the link below:


http://www.amazon.com/Standard-HDMI-Cable-4096-2160P/dp/B00GSE97FG


but they are really CAT 2 High Speed HDMI cables at best! So racs is right...NOTHING in the net that "claims" to be the latest HDMI 2.0 (at least not for now) is truly a "HDMI 2.0" cable...In the internet, there are numerous information all around you, but pick a "source" where it is the most relevant. For instance, for bluray standards, look out for reliable news from the "horse mouth" like BDA...and same goes for HDMI specs for cables and connections...I will advise to look at HDMI.org. If there is no information on HDMI 2.0 cable, then whatever that is currently sold and labelled as "HDMI 2.0" is at best - HDMI 1.4 cables - sorry...if one is not aware, we should not be using HDMI 1.3 or 1.4a/b etc...it should be referred to as HDMI high speed (Cat 2) cable with Ethernet.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: racs on October 09, 2014, 09:06
For the HDMI cable versioning...it can get quite confusing at times. FWIW there are "indeed" so-called HDMI 2.0 cables selling in the internet like Amazon etc...(like the link below:


http://www.amazon.com/Standard-HDMI-Cable-4096-2160P/dp/B00GSE97FG


but they are really CAT 2 High Speed HDMI cables at best! So racs is right...NOTHING in the net that "claims" to be the latest HDMI 2.0 (at least not for now) is truly a "HDMI 2.0" cable...In the internet, there are numerous information all around you, but pick a "source" where it is the most relevant. For instance, for bluray standards, look out for reliable news from the "horse mouth" like BDA...and same goes for HDMI specs for cables and connections...I will advise to look at HDMI.org. If there is no information on HDMI 2.0 cable, then whatever that is currently sold and labelled as "HDMI 2.0" is at best - HDMI 1.4 cables - sorry...if one is not aware, we should not be using HDMI 1.3 or 1.4a/b etc...it should be referred to as HDMI high speed (Cat 2) cable with Ethernet.


Thank you Desray for the explanation... Yup everyone of us would like to change to the latest cable cos of latest technologies or updates. But in the market is different. They would love to push their product and label their cable as such and make us consumers believe and make us kanchiong there is another new cable while it is apparently the same as the highest standard as of now which we might already have. As for now... yup the high speed cat 2 is sufficient so those who have it now can say u r safe.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: kzone on October 09, 2014, 11:21
i just bought LHS' high speed HDMI with Ethernet. Is that high speed cat 2?
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: racs on October 09, 2014, 16:07
yes bro high speed is also called category 2.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: petetherock on October 09, 2014, 16:40
Good contributions by racs and des.
It's good to be clear so bros avoid being overcharged and swooping cables unnecessarily.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: racs on October 10, 2014, 08:32
Good contributions by racs and des.
It's good to be clear so bros avoid being overcharged and swooping cables unnecessarily.

No prob bro pete.. everyone is learning. I got to find out bout this cos I myself has been searching 25ft High speed hdmi cable for my receiver to my display to support at least up to 4k for now. And I need to run it inside the Lbox so I cant afford to get 1 and need to replace it again and again. I will post more info regarding the hdmi cable soon.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: petetherock on October 13, 2014, 00:02

More info:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/1535197-marantz-av8802-13-2-xlr-processor-hdmi-2-0-isf-wifi-bluetooth-details-20.html#post28152858

Quote
Per Jeff Coates (Director of Sales) the 8802 will not have HDCP 2.2 upon launch in Q1 2015 due to the lack of the chipset. When these do become available the 8802 and AVR-X7200W will be upgradable via a new HDMI board.
 
 A mid product cycle AV-7702(A) may come about with the new HDCP 2.2 chipsets, but that will be a new model and existing 7702's won't be upgradable like the 8802. Not for sure yet if I understood him correctly. Also, as he mentioned as well as others here, no one knows if BR4K is going to go with HDCP 2.2 for sure yet and even if they do customers can still split video to the 4K monitor/projector and audio to the pre/AVR for units without it.
Eventually having to return a 8802 to upgrade it to HDCP 2.2 ... in my case this is a definitive nogo... as having a 8801, I'd better wait to buy the full complete hardware version of the 8802, even if Atmos is a must have in our 11.2 context. (http://www.avsforum.com/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif)
 
  Quote:  Originally Posted by Hugo S (http://www.avsforum.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif) (http://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/1696641-official-marantz-av7702-pre-pro-post28152802.html#post28152802)  Hi,
 
 With the provision that it hasn't been proved that as the 4K image needs a full HDCP 2.2 compatible chain to be played in 4K, the sound won't be submitted to the same constraint.
 
 Meaning that if you connect a HDCP 2.2 4K BRD player to a HDCP 2.0 receiver, an Atmos/Auro 3D or future DTS/MDA track could only be played in its native Dolby/DTS 5.1/7.1 mode instead of the full Atmos/Auro 3D or whatever format, as in this case the HDCP 2.0 receiver could be judged as "insufficiently" compatible by the HDCP 2.2 BRD player...
 
 This is a possibility that has better to be kept in mind in this HDCP 2.2 compatibility context... (http://www.avsforum.com/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif)
 
 Hugo
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: jeffong on October 15, 2014, 06:17
Wasn't there a rumour the AV8802 and Denon AVR equivalent would have both HDCP2.2 and the high bandwidth?

Unfortunately no, even the HDCP2.2 implementation on the Onkyo is supposedly flawed as that one port that implements it cannot support the full HDMI 2.0 18Gbps transfer rate. This issue is also seen in the latest 4k TV's like the new LG 79 and 84 inch displays. As such it's worth delaying any equipment upgrade until the new 4k BluRay players are launched in Q4 next year.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: petetherock on October 15, 2014, 08:17
Here's some food for thought... Even for the early adopters, how many 4k discs are there and how many people have 4k displays... I guess for bro des having it now is joy already :)
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: jeffong on October 15, 2014, 10:13
Here's some food for thought... Even for the early adopters, how many 4k discs are there and how many people have 4k displays... I guess for bro des having it now is joy already :)

It's not a problem for Des since he changes his gear on an semi-annual basis anyway. LOL!!!
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: Doggie Howser on October 15, 2014, 10:18
Unfortunately no, even the HDCP2.2 implementation on the Onkyo is supposedly flawed as that one port that implements it cannot support the full HDMI 2.0 18Gbps transfer rate. This issue is also seen in the latest 4k TV's like the new LG 79 and 84 inch displays. As such it's worth delaying any equipment upgrade until the new 4k BluRay players are launched in Q4 next year.

The 8802 IIRC has been delayed IIRC which added to the rumours that it would have the 18Gbps bandwidth of the non HDCP2.2 compliant Denon/Marantz models
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: petetherock on October 15, 2014, 11:49
From what I gathered at AVS, the first few 8802 will not have the full HDCP 2.2, and you have to send it back for an upgrade.
That can have potential issues.
Of course, they can sell the upgraded one as a 8803!
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: desray on October 15, 2014, 17:12
We all can agreed on one thing...4K is awesome but it is also a PITA because both HDMI and HDCP implementation are not moving in tandem (hand-in-hand) with each other...that's why the confusion and frustration for early adopter of 4K...Frankly I felt short-changed when I read the developments on HDMI 2.0 and HDCP2.2.

I understand a lot of members here are still very confused as to what the heck is all these HDMI 2.0 and HDCP2.2 is all about...maybe let's break it down in simple hard truth (facts)

#1: HDCP 2.2 will ONLY be present in HDMI 2.0

#2: HDMI 2.0 requires a hardware upgrade on your AV equipment - like Bluray player and AVR but there is NO NEED for you to get a new set of HDMI cable. The present High-Speed HDMI cable with Ethernet should suffice

#3: The current batch of AVR with HDMI 2.0 input/output already have the FULL SUITE of features like the ability to support 18Gbps throughput rate and support for 4K/60 with 4:4:4 at 10 or 12bit amongst other things...The issue here lies with the stupid HDCP2.2 specs not moving in tandem with the HDMI 2.0 production schedule! And if 4K streaming or source like a 4K bluray is going to use HDCP2.2, then we may not be able to get any picture!. Hence we face with half-baked implementation for 4K passthrough and upscaling feature on the AVR which is akin to the heart and brain in a typical Home Theatre setup.

#4: Looking ahead, BDA has just recently announced on the availability of 4K standard bluray which is most likely to utilize HDCP2.2 for its DRM...the existing AV gears we are having now may work provided we forgo HDCP2.2 standards...But proponent like SONY gonna be pissed off... :P

#5: If HDCP2.2 only affects the transmission of an encrypted video signal from the source - i.e. bluray player to the target (say a 4K UHD TV or Projector) and audio is not affected, then the best bet is of course to get another new bluray player (e.g. Oppo BDP-203/205) with dual HDMI 2.0 and full HDCP2.2 compliant to send separate video and audio signals to the 4K HDCP2.2 compliant display and a AVR with HDMI 2.0 connection but w/o HDCP2.2 feature for multichannel processing. Dolby Atmos and probably Auro 3D able to pass through bitstream format with ease even at HDMI 1.4 specs...so audio is not the issue here.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: jeffong on October 16, 2014, 06:08
Another little known danger is how HEVC decoding is implemented on the TV side. For example, the current Panny 4K TV"s implemented a version of HEVC decoding that can"t support 4K streams from Netflix (not even with a firmware upgrade). There"s a remote chance they won't be able to decode the new 4K Blurays as well.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: petetherock on October 16, 2014, 07:09
Yeah... early 4k TV adopter may run the risk of losing out.. i.e. they won't meet the HDCP 2.2 standards and even now, Sony has taken to upgrade their HDMI input by asking buyers to book for service and swop one of their HDMI inputs.

So caveat emptor.

But as I mentioned, if one needs an amp now, it's ok to buy, as most buyers don't even do 7.1, so the current new gen amps are perfectly fine.

And for cutting edge bros like Desray, he would have changed amps before 4k becomes a standard.

From that stand point, I doubt if 4k will become the standard in the near future, even if 4k BR players are on the horizon.

It's all about the availability of software, and that's as common as hen's teeth...
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: desray on October 16, 2014, 09:00
Not really cutting edge. Just like to play with new toys.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: Doggie Howser on October 16, 2014, 12:07
Another little known danger is how HEVC decoding is implemented on the TV side. For example, the current Panny 4K TV"s implemented a version of HEVC decoding that can"t support 4K streams from Netflix (not even with a firmware upgrade). There"s a remote chance they won't be able to decode the new 4K Blurays as well.

That's only if you need the Netflix app on the SmartTV no? If you use a computer based NetFlix, it shouldn't be an issue with the version of H.265
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: jeffong on October 16, 2014, 13:53
That's only if you need the Netflix app on the SmartTV no? If you use a computer based NetFlix, it shouldn't be an issue with the version of H.265

Right now you can only access Netflix's 4k stream using customized apps provided to a few TV manufacturers such as LG and Samsung.  There's no other way to do it using other Netflix apps including your PC.  For Panny TV's, it was mentioned that it was a hardware implementation which resulted in a incompatible HEVC decoding algorithm to the one used by Netflix.

From a Singapore context, you will only be able to watch Netflix 4K using a new Samsung 4K TV and switching the app store to the US one which allows you to download the Netflix app.  No joy for LG TV's since there's no way to switch to the US store.  Of course you will also need a VPN service to masquerade yourself as a US resident.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: petetherock on November 01, 2014, 00:09
:(
http://www.soundandvision.com/content/do-i-need-hdcp-22-compliant-receiver-ultra-hdtv

Quote
Q I’m trying to choose between new AV receivers from Sony, Denon, and Yamaha. The Sony is the frontrunner, but I am hesitant to pull the trigger because it’s not HDCP 2.2 compliant. If I connect an HTPC to this AVR, will I have problems in the future playing Ultra HD movies? How about satellite? Will I have the same problem if I eventually upgrade to an Ultra HD-capable satellite receiver?—Sam Shirzadegan
 A The answer to both questions, sadly, is yes. HDCP (High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection) 2.2 is the latest version of an industry-standard copy protection scheme created to prevent the hijacking of digital AV signals carried over an HDMI or DVI connection. Earlier HDCP versions were devised to prevent copying of content on Blu-ray, but this newest version has been developed specifially for Ultra HD TV.
 While most new UHDTVs that came out in 2014 provide HDMI 2.0 connections with HDCP 2.2, and forthcoming sources such 4K Blu-ray and Ultra HD satellite receivers will also be HDCP 2.2-compliant, only a handful of new AV receivers—all of them from Onkyo—have HDMI 2.0/HDCP 2.2. So what will happen when, a year or two down the road, you’re ready to route an Ultra HD source such as a 4K Blu-ray player, HTPC, or satellite receiver through a non-compliant receiver? The source will attempt to “handshake” with the non-HDCP 2.2 receiver, and when that authentication process fails, you will likely be presented with a blank screen.
 Are there any workarounds to deal with this problem? Kind of. You could always bypass the receiver and make a direct HDMI connection to an Ultra HD display. In this case, audio would typically be transmitted seperately to the receiver over an optical or coaxial digital hookup, and video carried over HDMI. Better yet, since you’re concerned about Ultra-HD compatibility (and not everyone is) you could hold out for more HDCP 2.2-compatible receivers to become available so you’ll have a wider range of choices.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: petetherock on November 08, 2014, 18:52
http://www.quantumdata.com/news/article84.asp

That means HDCP isn't going to come til next year earliest IMHO...

Quote
Elgin IL - October 28, 2014 - Quantum Data™, a worldwide provider of video test equipment, today announced that the popular 980 HDMI Protocol Analyzer module supports HDMI-HDCP compliance testing for HDMI source and sink devices per HDCP CTS 2.2. (Test for repeaters expected to follow.) Quantum Data's support for HDCP 2.2 compliance testing on the 980 Protocol Analyzer is a significant expansion to the existing support for the protocol, video, audio, and advanced features compliance test sections of the HDMI (and MHL) CTS for both source and sink devices.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: francishuang on November 08, 2014, 19:13
They predicted end 2015 for consumers
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: petetherock on November 09, 2014, 08:11
They predicted end 2015 for consumers
Are you buying your processor yet bro?
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: francishuang on November 09, 2014, 12:26
Are you buying your processor yet bro?

Not yet, in no hurry. Washing lp n fine tuning tt these few mths.. hehe
The kk in ceilings have not hit the market, laser projector have not hit the market,no processor in market now has caught my eye,  wife only allow me to tear down ceiling aft cny. So no hurry yet...regretted selling away the krell processor too early.  :(

Anything that caught ur eye?
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: petetherock on November 10, 2014, 14:12
Are you waiting fir hdcp 2.2?
I am considering the SR 7009... But I want to make sure they can allow ATMOS sound with hdcp 2.2 sources...
Will listen out at the ISSE..
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: francishuang on November 10, 2014, 14:52
Are you waiting fir hdcp 2.2?
I am considering the SR 7009... But I want to make sure they can allow ATMOS sound with hdcp 2.2 sources...
Will listen out at the ISSE..

Sort of. Waiting for post cny period to tear down false ceiling, waiting  for a processor that can do finer adjustment to channel delay as well. I personally think that is very impt for object base atmos.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: desray on November 10, 2014, 19:14
...waiting  for a processor that can do finer adjustment to channel delay as well. I personally think that is very impt for object base atmos.

Interesting concept you have there...perhaps you can expound on how channel delay can benefit Atmos? I'm interested to know from your perspective.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: francishuang on November 10, 2014, 19:20
Interesting concept you have there...perhaps you can expound on how channel delay can benefit Atmos? I'm interested to know from your perspective.

Can talk abt it if we meet? Very difficult to type so much on phone.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: desray on November 10, 2014, 19:27
Can talk abt it if we meet? Very difficult to type so much on phone.

Or alternatively may I suggest that when you get back home or perhaps during one of these days during your leisure time and when you have access to a PC or laptop to type with ease, you can share with everyone here for all to benefit...conversation between just the two of us defeats the purpose of a forum where it is a great place to share knowledge, agree?

Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: francishuang on November 10, 2014, 19:37
Will try to...ages since i last touch a comp to type. Only time i use comp nowadays is to do eq.   :)
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: desray on November 10, 2014, 19:44
Will try to...ages since i last touch a comp to type. Only time i use comp nowadays is to do eq.   :)

Wow...been "ages" since you last "touch" a computer to type? You Sir really intrigue me even further...May I ask what kind of profession are you in that doesn't require you to have access to a PC at this digital age? Hmmm...so can I safely "assume" that the 1,200+ postings you made here mostly using a smart phone to type? If really that's the case, then I really have to salute you on this!!!

Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: francishuang on November 10, 2014, 20:52
I deal with disposable plastics
yep, i use my phone to access forums
Tats y my post are pretty short
 ;D
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: desray on November 10, 2014, 21:52
Look forward for your explanation on the channel delay. Make or simple and short...i don't suppose it's a lengthy discourse to explain. Take your time to type on your phone.


Sent from my iPad Mini
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: desray on November 11, 2014, 23:09
Francishuang, still waiting for your response on this channel delay concept...
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: francishuang on November 11, 2014, 23:48
Wa...teacher chasing for homework ah?  ;)



A airplane flying across the front of sound stage. Does it only involve the left center right ch? Sub is involve as well.  If they are not properly aling, what happens to the image of the effect? Will the afterburner sound come at the right time?

Doesnt all these cause sound to become more unrealistic n less immersive?


How to make all these ch work together so tat the intended sound will arrive at the time which it should be? With our avr, processor,Aft eq, to further 'catch' the timing, use ch delay. Play with the distance. Sometime it is tat +/- 0.2m away from sweet spot. But sometimes avr processor is limited to .3m or .5m jump.

With object base atmos, or auro. I feel timing becomes even more impt. For atmos, the effect becomes very directional, if the timing of chs are not aling closely enuf, the effect will feel disjointed, unnatural. For auro, its 3 level, if a plane flys from middle of screen to over ur head, imagine the sound tats traveling from ur fronts front height vog rear height channels at same time sub doing the lfe.  I tink timing even more impt for auro to present acurate effect imaging. Natural immersive 不拖泥带水。

Its not just abt adding more channels to create the effects. When the effect is panning left to right up n down, like a person talking while walking to his chair n then he sits down. Will the vocal image comes out from his mouth while hes doing all these? Timing  between ch is the key here

Personally, i do not view the different channels of the ht system as indivdual. I rather view them as if they are like the drivers of a pair of speakers. What happens when the drivers of the speakers are not time aling properly? Muddy image, uncoherant sound, unnatural sound? To me, every ch gota work together, there are already so many different factors at work, room condition,  different speakers power amp cable type cable lengths.they will make the different ch sound different, i feel that using group delay to try aling the channels timing is impt as it can help me create the immersive ht experience i am seeking



 
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: desray on November 12, 2014, 07:06
Wa...teacher chasing for homework ah?  ;)



A airplane flying across the front of sound stage. Does it only involve the left center right ch? Sub is involve as well.  If they are not properly aling, what happens to the image of the effect? Will the afterburner sound come at the right time?

Doesnt all these cause sound to become more unrealistic n less immersive?


How to make all these ch work together so tat the intended sound will arrive at the time which it should be? With our avr, processor,Aft eq, to further 'catch' the timing, use ch delay. Play with the distance. Sometime it is tat +/- 0.2m away from sweet spot. But sometimes avr processor is limited to .3m or .5m jump.

With object base atmos, or auro. I feel timing becomes even more impt. For atmos, the effect becomes very directional, if the timing of chs are not aling closely enuf, the effect will feel disjointed, unnatural. For auro, its 3 level, if a plane flys from middle of screen to over ur head, imagine the sound tats traveling from ur fronts front height vog rear height channels at same time sub doing the lfe.  I tink timing even more impt for auro to present acurate effect imaging. Natural immersive 不拖泥带水。

Its not just abt adding more channels to create the effects. When the effect is panning left to right up n down, like a person talking while walking to his chair n then he sits down. Will the vocal image comes out from his mouth while hes doing all these? Timing  between ch is the key here

Personally, i do not view the different channels of the ht system as indivdual. I rather view them as if they are like the drivers of a pair of speakers. What happens when the drivers of the speakers are not time aling properly? Muddy image, uncoherant sound, unnatural sound? To me, every ch gota work together, there are already so many different factors at work, room condition,  different speakers power amp cable type cable lengths.they will make the different ch sound different, i feel that using group delay to try aling the channels timing is impt as it can help me create the immersive ht experience i am seeking



Thanks for making an effort to type in such a lengthy explanation using just a smart phone...I know its not easy. Kudos to you on this!

The information you provided on the channel delay is not new and in fact forms the basis for literally every single audio calibration algorithm (be it YPAO, Audyssey, AccuEQ etc) that ever existed in a AVR or AV amp to start with. Without getting the frequency and time delay right, w/o a doubt in mind, this will affect the multi-channel sound experience in a detrimental way to say the least - credit to you for elaborating why channel or rather time delay is crucial.

I have a question for you, "Do you use Audyssey for your AVR setup presently?" My next reply will depend on your next reply :)
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: francishuang on November 12, 2014, 07:27
Yes, its not new. But with the up coming stuffs, i feel its even more impt now.
No processor now, have not play ht for few mths
Ex processor, no audessy
Title: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: desray on November 12, 2014, 08:51
Yes, its not new. But with the up coming stuffs, i feel its even more impt now.
No processor now, have not play ht for few mths
Ex processor, no audessy

Dont get me wrong here....i agree with you. Burt do u agree with me that it will be a more meaningful discussion if you have past and actual experience with the more recent AVR circa 2012 - 2013... The atmos enabled AVR is still quite new in the market and the adoption rate is rather slow...even i have to admit that i m still exploring... The more "relevant" question that will really pique everyone's interest is whether there is "any" significant difference in the current iteration of audyssey calibration algorithm versus the previous version, assuming still utilizing MultEQ XT32. If there is indeed a difference, what will that be? We know for the fact that some form of DSP processing has been involved to work in tandem with atmos enabled speakers and possibly even ceiling speakers as well...i hope there will be some official word from audyssey on atmos. This will seek to explain some of the doubts and speculation on the time and frequency changes involved during the calibration.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: petetherock on November 12, 2014, 10:23
IMO as we discussed in the disc thread, software is the main issue...

Followed by the HDCP 2.2 issue... but there is news that the new Silicon Image chip is due in the first quarter 2015. That can bring some clarity to the HDMI / HDCP issue, and the average Joe won't need to feel frustrated about buying a product that is only partially complete.

But if 4k isn't vital, I mean, how much 4k content is there anyway? Then it's not a big deal. The big deal is the lack of info, and a clear path for both 4k content, HDCP, and also the Atmos vs Auro issues..
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: desray on November 12, 2014, 12:08
Agreed...we will take the atmos calibration discussion in the appropriate thread. Let's stick to the HDMI 2.0 developments.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: petetherock on July 04, 2016, 22:31
Just sounding like an old record perhaps .. but Please Do Not Hot Swap Your HDMI cable!
It can be a really expensive problem.
I don't switch off the amp, but if you really want to be safe, turn everything off then swop cables.. cheers
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: petetherock on July 08, 2016, 23:24
HDMI 2.0b:


HDMI 2.0b, which is backwards compatible with earlier versions of the HDMI specification, is the most recent update of the HDMI specification. It also enables key enhancements to support market requirements for enhancing the consumer video and audio experience.


What are the key advanced features enabled by HDMI 2.0b?


Enables transmission of High Dynamic Range (HDR) video
Bandwidth up to 18Gbps
4K@50/60 (2160p), which is 4 times the clarity of 1080p/60 video resolution
Up to 32 audio channels for a multi-dimensional immersive audio experience
Up to 1536kHz audio sample frequency for the highest audio fidelity
Simultaneous delivery of dual video streams to multiple users on the same screen
Simultaneous delivery of multi-stream audio to multiple users (Up to 4)
Support for the wide angle theatrical 21:9 video aspect ratio
Dynamic synchronization of video and audio streams
CEC extensions provide more expanded command and control of consumer electronics devices through a single control point
HDMI 2.0b does not define new cables or new connectors.
Current High Speed cables (Category 2 cables) are capable of carrying the increased bandwidth.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: desray on July 09, 2016, 07:50
HDMI 2.0b:


HDMI 2.0b, which is backwards compatible with earlier versions of the HDMI specification, is the most recent update of the HDMI specification. It also enables key enhancements to support market requirements for enhancing the consumer video and audio experience.


What are the key advanced features enabled by HDMI 2.0b?


Enables transmission of High Dynamic Range (HDR) video
Bandwidth up to 18Gbps
4K@50/60 (2160p), which is 4 times the clarity of 1080p/60 video resolution
Up to 32 audio channels for a multi-dimensional immersive audio experience
Up to 1536kHz audio sample frequency for the highest audio fidelity
Simultaneous delivery of dual video streams to multiple users on the same screen
Simultaneous delivery of multi-stream audio to multiple users (Up to 4)
Support for the wide angle theatrical 21:9 video aspect ratio
Dynamic synchronization of video and audio streams
CEC extensions provide more expanded command and control of consumer electronics devices through a single control point
HDMI 2.0b does not define new cables or new connectors.
Current High Speed cables (Category 2 cables) are capable of carrying the increased bandwidth.
I dun see any 'new' features been added to HDMI 2.0b specs...did I miss something here?

Sent from my LG-K535 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: Doggie Howser on July 09, 2016, 08:51
I guess it just formalises the standards so we have a differentiation between the SR7010 and the 7011. Or the Avenge A3050 and the A3060 :P
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: desray on July 09, 2016, 10:52
I guess it just formalises the standards so we have a differentiation between the SR7010 and the 7011. Or the Avenge A3050 and the A3060
Oh... I thought it's been ratified liao. Hmmm...

Sent from my LG-K535 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: petetherock on November 12, 2016, 20:44
Interesting test of some common HDMI 2 cables:
http://www.soundandvision.com/content/uhd-blu-ray-vs-hdmi-%E2%80%93-pt-2-which-cables-can-actually-pass-hdmi-20#WkR7SJ1iIVJeWIi1.97


Not all are created the same it seems, and not all will pass 4k..
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: petetherock on December 16, 2016, 13:17

Just bringing this thread up, given the renewed interest with the 4k players.
In essence, most cables will pass the signal if they are kept short: i.e. 3m or less.
For longer lengths, it's best to test or see if others have used it.
If your cable is >5years old, it's likely that it's only HDMI 1.3 compliant, and you can consider changing it, especially if you are going to lay it.
Otherwise, most cables are 4k ready, ethernet ready, 3D ready. And that's what you look for on the packaging if you are buying a new cable.


https://www.cnet.com/news/hdmi-2-0-what-you-need-to-know/

Will I need a new cable?
NO! Well, probably not. Here is the exact quote from HDMI.org: "Version 2.0 of the HDMI Specification does not define new cables or new connectors. Current High Speed cables (category 2 cables) are capable of carrying the increased bandwidth." Emphasis mine. Here's another direct quote: "HDMI 2.0, which is backwards-compatible with earlier versions of the HDMI specifications..."


Version 2.0 (like 1.4 before it) is entirely a hardware change. It is not a cable change. You can expect cable manufacturers to proclaim that you need expensive new "Version 2.0 cables" but this is untrue. Your current High Speed cables should work just fine.


I hedge with "should" as if the cable isn't fully up to the High Speed spec, it might not work. In this case, you might get dropouts or sparkles (as discussed in this article). If you do, a different but not more expensive HDMI cable should work just fine.

It's worth mentioning, again, that 4K HDMI cables are nonsense.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: petetherock on December 21, 2016, 12:25
YMMV but here is an opinion on whether you need those Premium cables:
https://www.cnet.com/news/premium-hdmi-cable-certification-program-what-you-need-to-know/


Personally, I will consider them if I need new ones, but I won't rip out my current ones if they work fine.


The Premium HDMI Cable Certification Program -- the brainchild of industry body HDMI Licensing -- is a way to identify cables that have been tested to perform at a specific level, i.e. they can pass 4K content.


But wait, you ask, can't any High Speed HDMI cable pass 4K content? Yes, as long as it's a true High Speed HDMI cable.


Though superficially an altruistic way to help people get the right cable, this program could also be an easy way for cable manufacturers to fleece an unsuspecting consumer.


High Speed HDMI


The beauty of the last few iterations of HDMI is they didn't require new cables. All High Speed HDMI cables have enough bandwidth to carry the new 4K content. In their announcement of HDMI 2.0, HDMI Licensing even said "Version 2.0 of the HDMI Specification does not define new cables or new connectors. Current High Speed cables (category 2 cables) are capable of carrying the increased bandwidth."


The changes were inside the devices. As in, the send/receive chips in TVs, receivers, Blu-ray players, etc., were HDMI 2.0 (or the older HDMI 1.4), but the cables were merely a dumb pipe without a version number. There's no such thing as an "HDMI 2.0 Cable."


Premium HDMI Cable Certification Program






Here's how HDMI Licensing describes their new program: "The program will help ensure that consumers, who will connect their devices with these cables, can enjoy the full potential of the 4K/UltraHD experience with the latest feature-rich content. This program encompasses additional and enhanced HDMI cable testing as well as a comprehensive anti-counterfeiting label program. This empowers participating HDMI Adopters to design and test their High Speed HDMI Cables for ultra-reliability and high performance typically needed for emerging 4K/UltraHD content."


The last sentence is key, but we'll come back to that.


In order for a HDMI cable to get a shiny certification sticker, it will have to go through testing to confirm it can "reliably support the full 18Gbps bandwidth of the HDMI 2.0 Specification."


Not every cable will be tested, of course. One would hope that each length within a series gets tested, such as the 1-meter, the 3-meter and the 6-meter versions of the Ultra Gold Superduper HDMI Cables from CableCo, not just 1-meter version.


Did you catch the number on that bus?


If this feels a bit like HDMI Licensing throwing consumers under the bus, it's because in a way they are. Up to this point, HDMI Licensing has been rigidly neutral. Now, they're officially saying that all cables are equal, but some are more equal than others. Cables from companies that can afford to pay the licensing fee get endowed with an explicit recommendation.


Make no mistake, this program has come about because the cable manufacturers that charge lots of money for their cables wanted a way to differentiate their products from budget HDMI cables. Not able to boast , this test and logo are a way to justify their higher prices.


True, this certification does guarantee the cable will pass 4K, but that doesn't mean a budget cable without this certification won't. Most almost certainly will, though longer passive cables may be less likely to, depending on your other gear.


A crowded market


HDMI Licensing isn't the only one getting into the certified cable racket. Underwriters Labs, also known as UL as well as that group that makes sure your gear doesn't burn down your house, is launching their own certification program. This is odd for a company that up to this point certified safety, and instead switching to certifying performance.


Bottom Line


In the end it appears like HDMI Licensing (and UL) are creating a solution without a problem. Why? Money. This is a new revenue stream for these companies, and inevitably these costs will be passed onto the consumer.


If you have an AmEx Black Card budget, have no fear. Your overpriced, certified cables will almost certainly pass 4K content, no problem. For us mortals that would rather not get burned on $100-a-foot HDMI cables (when $1-a-foot cables work equally well), buying cheap HDMI cables from reputable online outlets like Amazon or Monoprice, are still your best bet. As their outstanding user ratings can usually attest these cables should do everything you need them to now and into the future.
Quote

Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: CASH on December 21, 2016, 13:04
thks for the in-depth research...
N quote's that come along with it...

but i still trust HDMI.org for their certification programs.
 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: petetherock on January 04, 2017, 23:33



http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/hdmi-forum-announces-version-21-of-the-hdmi-specification-300384117.html



HDMI FORUM ANNOUNCES VERSION 2.1 OF THE HDMI SPECIFICATION


Higher video resolutions and Dynamic HDR highlight
the new advanced features for the HDMI® eco-system


Las Vegas, Nevada – January 4, 2017 - HDMI Forum, Inc. today announced the upcoming release of Version 2.1 of the HDMI Specification. This latest HDMI Specification supports a range of Higher Video Resolutions and refresh rates including 8K60 and 4K120, Dynamic HDR, and increased bandwidth with a new 48G cable. Version 2.1 of the HDMI Specification is backward compatible with earlier versions of the Specification, and was developed by the HDMI Forum’s Technical Working Group whose members represent some of the world’s leading manufacturers of consumer electronics, personal computers, mobile devices, cables and components.


“This new release of the Specification offers a broad range of advanced features for enhancing the consumer entertainment experience, as well as providing robust solutions to the commercial AV sector,” said Robert Blanchard of Sony Electronics, president of the HDMI Forum. “This is part of the HDMI Forum’s continuing mission to develop specifications for the HDMI eco-system that meet the growing demand for compelling, high-performance and exciting features.”


HDMI Specification 2.1 Features Include:
Higher Video Resolutions support a range of higher resolutions and faster refresh rates including 8K60Hz and 4K120Hz for immersive viewing and smooth fast-action detail.
Dynamic HDR ensures every moment of a video is displayed at its ideal values for depth, detail, brightness, contrast, and wider color gamuts—on a scene-by-scene or even a frame-by-frame basis.
48G cables enable up to 48Gbps bandwidth for uncompressed HDMI 2.1 feature support including 8K video with HDR. The cable is backwards compatible with earlier versions of the HDMI Specification and can be used with existing HDMI devices.
eARC supports the most advanced audio formats such as object-based audio, and enables advanced audio signal control capabilities including device auto-detect.
Game Mode VRR features variable refresh rate, which enables a 3D graphics processor to display the image at the moment it is rendered for more fluid and better detailed gameplay, and for reducing or eliminating lag, stutter, and frame tearing.
The new specification will be available to all HDMI 2.0 Adopters and they will be notified when it is released early in Q2 2017."


Note the announcement of eARC! Supports all audio formats, including TrueHD/Atmos, DTS-HD MA and multichannel PCM, and has its own independent signaling.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: ronildoq on January 05, 2017, 00:10
Technology..... so fast!!48gbps 8k support!  :o
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: CASH on January 05, 2017, 00:49
now u can see y i was very sticky on changing out all my existing old HDMI cables to the orange stickered "PREMIUM" HDMI cables...
at least its 18GBPS certified..
i know its not 48GBPS, but its in between..
hehehe!!!!
 ;D
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: dXter on January 05, 2017, 10:10
HEVC profile 6.2 states 8k120Hz, so still have at least one more round of HDMI spec upgrade to go.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: desray on January 06, 2017, 09:42
This is called "planned obsolescence" employed by most tech firms these days.


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Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: Jag on January 06, 2017, 13:21
48Gbps..... it's going to be fiber HDMI.

The only way to avoid installation issues years down to road today is to ensure the cable conduit allows easy cable removal and replacement.

There is NO wireless today or in the next few years that can do 48Gbps.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: petetherock on February 08, 2017, 13:22



http://www.soundandvision.com/content/sneak-peek-hdmi-21#sW2qgUKXwboJcjew.97




Quote
Nevertheless, here’s what we know so far about HDMI 2.1.


The big news is that it’s designed to have a bandwidth of 48Gbps (well over twice the 18Gbps bandwidth of HDMI 2.0 and 2.0a), and employs a new form of HDMI cable called, oddly enough, 48G. The HDMI connectors on this new cable will be the same as the current HDMI connectors, but the cable itself will be upgraded. The new cables will be backwards compatible with all current sources and hardware.


At least part of HDMI 2.1’s advanced bandwidth, however, is achieved by hardware changes at the source and receiving ends, not just in the cable. To get the most from HDMI 2.1, the hardware in the source and the receiver will also be different; you won’t get the full HDMI 2.1 package with the new cables alone.


And as far as we know, the current HDMI versions in your sources, AV receivers, and displays can’t be upgraded to full HDMI 2.1 with firmware alone. It’s possible that firmware upgrades might enable at least some of HDMI 2.1’s features, but don’t assume that they will; this will be specific to the actual source/AV receiver/display and its manufacturer.


What benefits will this higher bandwidth offer? It can convey 4K at a maximum of 120 fps (frames per second, or Hz), in 4:4:4 color (no color compression). It can do 8K at 60 fps (4:4:4) or 120Hz (4:2:0), and other resolutions up to 10K.


In addition, HDMI 2.1 can handle BT.2020 color at a bit depth of up to 16 bits (per color), considerably higher than the 12-bit limit of HDMI 2.0 and 2.0a. It can also do HDR with dynamic metadata at 8K and higher. HDMI 2.0 can convey the dynamic metadata currently offered in Dolby Vision, but only at a maximum of 4K resolution. In addition, it’s our understanding that Dolby Vision’s current compatibility with HDMI 2.0 is due to specific Dolby workarounds that allow it to use that version of HDMI. There are other competitors for dynamic metadata HDR currently vying for future use; they can’t use Dolby’s workarounds for obvious reasons and therefore could benefit from HDMI 2.1. (Dynamic metadata can code 2/7/17HDR differently for each shot or scene, whereas HDR10—currently the dominant HDR format on UHD Blu-ray discs—uses the same static metadata for an entire film.)


In addition, HDMI 2.1 will offer a variable refresh rate (VRR), a real benefit for gaming. It also promises enhancements to the Audio Return Chanel (ARC) feature, which in HDMI 2.1 will be called eARC. These ARC enhancements include increased audio bandwidth that, together with other possible benefits, will allow eARC to carry object-based audio (Dolby Atmos, DTS:X, and the like).




Read more at http://www.soundandvision.com/content/sneak-peek-hdmi-21#llrziSkYEZDhPAVX.99
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: ralfale on February 08, 2017, 14:34
Things are moving too fast!!
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: kenshin07 on February 08, 2017, 17:24
I am still using the very first/second gen hdmi 1.3b. Can get the new hdmi for my new place.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: petetherock on February 23, 2017, 14:52
http://www.soundandvision.com/content/are-new-cables-really-needed-hdmi-21#J35AmSijxd7cKHkl.97


Q It looks like the high data rate (up to 48Gbps) of the forthcoming HDMI 2.1 standard will create headaches for the consumer electronics industry, especially the cable manufacturers. Here’s my question: Why does decompression of video data happen in the disc player or streaming box instead of the TV? If the situation were reversed, then there would be no need for new, 48G HDMI cables. —Dave Ings / Toronto, Canada


A I don’t think cable manufacturers are too unhappy about the new HDMI 2.1 standard. After all, they’ll get the opportunity to sell you new cables.


There’s a simple reason why HDMI was designed to convey uncompressed video streams from the source to the display: copy protection. When HDMI was first introduced, a main selling point for film and TV studios looking to make their content available in high-definition was that conveying signals using HDMI’s high-bandwidth, encrypted connection would help to inhibit piracy. This in turn created a need to add MPEG video decompression capability to source devices, which is why that became a standard feature on Blu-ray players and other components.


A related historical footnote: Some early HDTVs — specifically, ones from Mitsubishi and Sony — featured FireWire connections. The reason? Manufacturers wanted to add networking capabilities to TVs, and FireWire, an Apple-developed serial bus designed for high-speed data transfer and bi-directional communication, permitted compressed HDTV signals to be easily shifted from a TV’s digital tuner to an external HDTV recorder. There was even an open standard created called HAVi (Home Audio Video Interoperability) to enable FireWire-based networking of devices so content and control functions could be distributed throughout the home. Ultimately, the film and television industry’s piracy concerns won out, and FireWire gave way first to DVI, then later HDMI, both of which supported the carriage of uncompressed video plus HDCP encryption.


The upshot here is that as long as high-resolution video sources like Ultra HD and regular Blu-ray players, cable/satellite boxes, PCs, and external streamers exist, there’s going to be HDMI. And as bandwidth requirements increase, as they will to support features like 8K-resolution video, high frame rates, and dynamic HDR, bigger HDMI pipes will be needed. In some cases, that’s going to mean new cables, which is what we’re unavoidably looking at with HDMI 2.1.




Read more at http://www.soundandvision.com/content/are-new-cables-really-needed-hdmi-21#gzDVDwo3YMPSK4vQ.99
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments & 2.0
Post by: petetherock on April 20, 2017, 14:57
Lots of info, but it's quite lengthy, but for anyone interested in crystal balling the future, here is an article about HDMI 2.1:
http://www.soundandvision.com/content/taking-hdmi-next-level#k1pzPeplXFtz4Dso.97
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments
Post by: petetherock on May 12, 2017, 21:16
A nice thread on which HDMI cables are true 4k + 18Gbps compliant:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/168-hdmi-q-one-connector-world/2834097-test-reports-hdmi-cables-properly-reliably-support-18gbps-hdmi-2-0b.html#post52755273
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments
Post by: petetherock on September 24, 2017, 20:16
HDMI 2.1:
https://www.cnet.com/news/hdmi-2-1-what-you-need-to-know/
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments
Post by: AndrewC on December 03, 2017, 07:56
2.1 Specification's gone live; https://www.hdmi.org/press/press_release.aspx?prid=152 (https://www.hdmi.org/press/press_release.aspx?prid=152)

Quote
HDMI FORUM RELEASES VERSION 2.1 OF THE HDMI SPECIFICATION
A Huge Leap Forward Supports Resolutions Up to 10K and Dynamic HDR and Introduces New Ultra High Speed HDMI Cable
SAN JOSE, California – November 28, 2017 - HDMI Forum, Inc. today announced the release of Version 2.1 of the HDMI® Specification which is now available to all HDMI 2.0 adopters. This latest HDMI Specification supports a range of higher video resolutions and refresh rates including 8K60 and 4K120, and resolutions up to 10K. Dynamic HDR formats are also supported, and bandwidth capability is increased up to 48Gbps.

Supporting the 48Gbps bandwidth is the new Ultra High Speed HDMI Cable. The cable ensures high-bandwidth dependent features are delivered including uncompressed 8K video with HDR. It features exceptionally low EMI (electro-magnetic interference) which reduces interference with nearby wireless devices. The cable is backwards compatible and can be used with the existing installed base of HDMI devices.

Version 2.1 of the HDMI Specification is backward compatible with earlier versions of the specification, and was developed by the HDMI Forum’s Technical Working Group whose members represent some of the world’s leading manufacturers of consumer electronics, personal computers, mobile devices, cables and components.

“The HDMI Forum’s mission is to develop specifications meeting market needs, growing demands for higher performance, and to enable future product opportunities,” said Robert Blanchard of Sony Electronics, president of the HDMI Forum.

HDMI Specification 2.1 Features Include:
  • Higher video resolutions support a range of high resolutions and faster refresh rates including 8K60Hz and 4K120Hz for immersive viewing and smooth fast-action detail. Resolutions up to 10K are also supported for commercial AV, and industrial and specialty usages.
  • Dynamic HDR support ensures every moment of a video is displayed at its ideal values for depth, detail, brightness, contrast and wider color gamuts—on a scene-by-scene or even a frame-by-frame basis.
  • The Ultra High Speed HDMI Cable supports the 48G bandwidth for uncompressed HDMI 2.1 feature support. The cable also features very low EMI emission and is backwards compatible with earlier versions of the HDMI Specification and can be used with existing HDMI devices.
  • eARC simplifies connectivity, provides greater ease of use, and supports the most advanced audio formats and highest audio quality. It ensures full compatibility between audio devices and upcoming HDMI 2.1 products.
  • Enhanced refresh rate features ensure an added level of smooth and seamless motion and transitions for gaming, movies and video. They include:
    • Variable Refresh Rate (VRR) reduces or eliminates lag, stutter and frame tearing for more fluid and better detailed gameplay.
    • Quick Media Switching (QMS) for movies and video eliminates the delay that can result in blank screens before content is displayed.
    • Quick Frame Transport (QFT) reduces latency for smoother no-lag gaming, and real-time interactive virtual reality.
  • Auto Low Latency Mode (ALLM) allows the ideal latency setting to automatically be set allowing for smooth, lag-free and uninterrupted viewing and interactivity.

The HDMI 2.1 Compliance Test Specification (CTS) will be published in stages during Q1-Q3 2018, and HDMI adopters will be notified when it is available.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments
Post by: petetherock on December 17, 2017, 15:34

It looks like the general implementation of this won't occur until 2019 or so..
https://www.cnet.com/news/hdmi-2-1-is-here-but-dont-worry-about-it-now/ (https://www.cnet.com/news/hdmi-2-1-is-here-but-dont-worry-about-it-now/)

So if one is due to change gear soon, we shouldn't lose too much sleep.. there will always be advances..

Quote
The HDMI Forum has announced the final specification for HDMI 2.1.

We've written before about HDMI 2.1 and how it's a significant leap in what is possible over the venerable A/V connection. Higher resolutions, frame rates and numerous additional features mean this is definitely a next-generation connection, and cable, despite looking exactly like every previous generation of HDMI.

But here's the thing: HDMI 2.1 is almost ridiculously future-proofed. Most of the stuff it adds, like higher resolutions and frame rates, won't be widely available for years, if they come at all. A TV bought today or next year that doesn't have HDMI 2.1 will still be able to play back the vast majority of available content in the highest quality. And we don't expect TVs with HDMI 2.1 to even go on sale until late 2018 or, more likely, 2019.

That's a long time to wait if you want a new TV now. So our advice is to not to worry about HDMI 2.1 when you shop for a TV in 2017 or 2018. Unless you're a hard-core PC gamer with a top-flight rig, you won't be missing anything.

That's said, here's what you need to know.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments
Post by: petetherock on December 27, 2017, 09:02
http://www.youtube.com/v/EmVXcwRJvW8&fs=1
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments
Post by: desray on December 27, 2017, 10:16
Unless there is hardware and software that support 8K else I dun see the rush or go crazy about this new HDMI v2.1. 


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Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments
Post by: petetherock on January 10, 2018, 19:26
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/av-gear-certified-hdmi-21-not-likely-year
New gear won't be out this year with HDMI 2.1
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments
Post by: petetherock on September 16, 2018, 19:52
Useful info on ARC and Atmos as well as metadata audio transmission aka MAT.
http://community.cedia.net/blogs/david-meyer/2018/06/25/dolby-atmos-over-hdmi-arc
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments
Post by: petetherock on January 09, 2019, 19:15
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/av-gear-certified-hdmi-21-not-likely-year
New gear won't be out this year with HDMI 2.1

One year later and here we are.. on the cusp of 2.1
It may take a while to stabilise... but I suspect mainstream AVR and TVs will have it by mid year.. so if you can tahan, things will be pretty exciting..
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments
Post by: cstanxpl on January 11, 2019, 09:54
Supra Active Optical Cable

https://www.facebook.com/SUPRACables/photos/a.383024708393560/2540187766010566/?type=3&theater
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments
Post by: desray on January 12, 2019, 13:16
Everyone just relax. Let the new specs marinate first before jumping to it.


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Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments
Post by: petetherock on January 12, 2019, 14:11
Everyone just relax. Let the new specs marinate first before jumping to it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
+1
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments
Post by: YANG on January 16, 2019, 00:53
1st official product by Belkin?
http://www.youtube.com/v/EfNS3OUJE9o&fs=1
how to identify?
like 2.0 with “premium” label?
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments
Post by: desray on January 16, 2019, 06:38
1st official product by Belkin?
http://www.youtube.com/v/EfNS3OUJE9o&fs=1
how to identify?
like 2.0 with “premium” label?

If talking about cables, I believed it will retain the high speed vs standard speed naming convention but with clear indication that it support up to 8k. I recalled reading somewhere in HDMI.org that the new fable will be marked as ultra high speed but number versioning should be refrained for product marketing/packaging. Maybe others can chip in as I might be wrong.



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Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments
Post by: HT102 on January 16, 2019, 07:56
These cable upgrades are a PIA for ceiling-mounted projector users.. for my case I will need to rework the cabling concealment furnishing (i.e. breaking/reinstalling false ceiling, painting, etc.) which will involve a few renovation vendors. :(
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments
Post by: petetherock on January 16, 2019, 13:36
Or go for Ultra Short Throw ..
The new wave....
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments
Post by: Jag on January 16, 2019, 19:33
I’m redoing my projector runs soon. Going to do dual fiber HDMI runs for redundancy. It’s a pain, but a necessity. I recommend for anyone to make the cable path in such a syvthst it can be easily replaceable by yourself.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments
Post by: petetherock on January 24, 2019, 21:05
HDMI 2.1 is on the way
A lot of new cables ?
Best to run a guide cable to pull the old ones out..
https://lifehacker.com/what-you-need-to-know-about-hdmi-2-1-and-8k-tvs-in-2019-1831842410

"HDMI 2.1 versus 2.0 (and 2.0a and 2.0b)
HDMI technology has gone through several revisions and updates over the years. The current standard, HDMI 2.0, replaced HDMI 1.4 in 2013 and updated the technology to support 4K Ultra High Def (UHD) video at 60 frames-per-second, plus a number of AV features. Better still, it didn’t require you to have to travel to the dust-covered lands behind your TV and swap out all your HDMI cables.

Two interstitial updates—2.0a and 2.0b—expanded High Dynamic Range (HDR) support for HDMI 2.0, but are otherwise identical to 2.0 and also use the same cables.

HDMI 2.1, on the other hand, is an entirely different beast.

The main difference is that HDMI 2.1 increases your maximum signal bandwidth from 18Gbps (HDMI 2.0) to 48Gbps, which enables video resolutions of up to 10K and frame rates as high as 120fps—numbers that seem grossly unnecessary given current hardware realities, but impressive nonetheless. And future-proofed, so you (hopefully) won’t have to upgrade your cables or connectors for some time.


HDMI 2.1 also brings a number of other A/V features and enhancements, including:

Dynamic HDR, which is capable of changing HDR settings on a frame-by-frame basis.
Enhanced Audio Return Channel (eARC), which enables the use of object-based surround sound formats, such as Dolby Atmos.
Variable Refresh Rate (VRR), Quick Frame Transport (QFT) and Auto Low Latency Mode (ALLM), which are helpful for video games since they reduce input lag, latency, and refresh rate for smoother, more accurate gameplay.
Quick Media Switching (QMS), which removes the delay when switching between resolutions and frame rates.
Aside from the higher signal bandwidth and new features, the other notable difference between HDMI 2.0 and 2.1 is that 2.1 will require new cables—something HDMI 2.0 mercifully did not, despite being a massive jump from HDMI 1.4.

These new cables, which are being called “ultra high speed” cables, are what enable the higher resolutions and refresh rates, but you don’t need to worry about buying them any time soon. Ultra high speed cables will only be required for the higher resolutions and framerates, while the additional HDMI 2.1 features (like eARC, Dynamic HDR, and the latency-reducing benefits) are compatible with most current HDMI cables.

Unfortunately, it will not be possible to update an existing HDMI 2.0 device to support HDMI 2.1 features via firmware or software updates; the only way to utilize HDMI 2.1’s features is by connecting an HDMI 2.1 device to an HDMI 2.1-supported TV (even if that connection is via a non-ultra high speed HDMI cable).

Here’s where it gets confusing, however. Depending on the device, “HDMI 2.1 support” might mean different things."
"
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments
Post by: desray on January 24, 2019, 22:39
HDMI 2.1 is on the way
A lot of new cables ?
Best to run a guide cable to pull the old ones out..
https://lifehacker.com/what-you-need-to-know-about-hdmi-2-1-and-8k-tvs-in-2019-1831842410 (https://lifehacker.com/what-you-need-to-know-about-hdmi-2-1-and-8k-tvs-in-2019-1831842410)

"HDMI 2.1 versus 2.0 (and 2.0a and 2.0b)
HDMI technology has gone through several revisions and updates over the years. The current standard, HDMI 2.0, replaced HDMI 1.4 in 2013 and updated the technology to support 4K Ultra High Def (UHD) video at 60 frames-per-second, plus a number of AV features. Better still, it didn’t require you to have to travel to the dust-covered lands behind your TV and swap out all your HDMI cables.

Two interstitial updates—2.0a and 2.0b—expanded High Dynamic Range (HDR) support for HDMI 2.0, but are otherwise identical to 2.0 and also use the same cables.

HDMI 2.1, on the other hand, is an entirely different beast.

The main difference is that HDMI 2.1 increases your maximum signal bandwidth from 18Gbps (HDMI 2.0) to 48Gbps, which enables video resolutions of up to 10K and frame rates as high as 120fps—numbers that seem grossly unnecessary given current hardware realities, but impressive nonetheless. And future-proofed, so you (hopefully) won’t have to upgrade your cables or connectors for some time.


HDMI 2.1 also brings a number of other A/V features and enhancements, including:

Dynamic HDR, which is capable of changing HDR settings on a frame-by-frame basis.
Enhanced Audio Return Channel (eARC), which enables the use of object-based surround sound formats, such as Dolby Atmos.
Variable Refresh Rate (VRR), Quick Frame Transport (QFT) and Auto Low Latency Mode (ALLM), which are helpful for video games since they reduce input lag, latency, and refresh rate for smoother, more accurate gameplay.
Quick Media Switching (QMS), which removes the delay when switching between resolutions and frame rates.
Aside from the higher signal bandwidth and new features, the other notable difference between HDMI 2.0 and 2.1 is that 2.1 will require new cables—something HDMI 2.0 mercifully did not, despite being a massive jump from HDMI 1.4.

These new cables, which are being called “ultra high speed” cables, are what enable the higher resolutions and refresh rates, but you don’t need to worry about buying them any time soon. Ultra high speed cables will only be required for the higher resolutions and framerates, while the additional HDMI 2.1 features (like eARC, Dynamic HDR, and the latency-reducing benefits) are compatible with most current HDMI cables.

Unfortunately, it will not be possible to update an existing HDMI 2.0 device to support HDMI 2.1 features via firmware or software updates; the only way to utilize HDMI 2.1’s features is by connecting an HDMI 2.1 device to an HDMI 2.1-supported TV (even if that connection is via a non-ultra high speed HDMI cable).

Here’s where it gets confusing, however. Depending on the device, “HDMI 2.1 support” might mean different things."
"

Thanks Pete for sharing...

So the only difference is with the higher refresh rate - e.g. 8K@60fps or 4K@120fps which will require a HDMI 2.1 cable. Other than that, the other new HDMI 2.1 *features* like eARC for instance can still be activated on the current HDMI 2.0a/b cable.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments
Post by: YANG on March 19, 2019, 15:03
https://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/inputs/5-1-surround-audio-passthrough
SONY's higher end TV models tested on DTS:X and ATMOS pass thru via eARC. Pity...PANASONIC models not tested.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments
Post by: kikoman on March 20, 2019, 00:08
I got my 2.1 optical hdmi for two weeks now. Tested the  PQ and SQ not bad on my ub9000.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments
Post by: Jag on March 20, 2019, 07:09
I got my 2.1 optical hdmi for two weeks now. Tested the  PQ and SQ not bad.

Can share details of the optical Hdmi 2.1 cable?
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments
Post by: desray on March 20, 2019, 07:13
Can share details of the optical Hdmi 2.1 cable?

+1...any "significant" improvement to the overall PQ/SQ? I dun suppose so for normal 8-bit 4:2:0 bluray? I could be wrong...
Title: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments
Post by: kikoman on March 21, 2019, 06:21
+1...any "significant" improvement to the overall PQ/SQ? I dun suppose so for normal 8-bit 4:2:0 bluray? I could be wrong...

https://www.google.com.sg/amp/s/m.aliexpress.com/item/32952707471.html

Many Hong Kongers are using now. I got myself a 10m for my projector and my cousin has a 1m for testing.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments
Post by: desray on March 21, 2019, 06:40
+1...any "significant" improvement to the overall PQ/SQ? I dun suppose so for normal 8-bit 4:2:0 bluray? I could be wrong...

https://www.google.com.sg/amp/s/m.aliexpress.com/item/32952707471.html

Many Hong Kongers are using now. I got myself a 10m for my projector and my cousin has a 1m for testing.

My question is any improvement perhaps in PQ or reliability of the signal since you have a 10m cable length. Say compare it with the previous cable you own with same length. This is not using fibre right? FWIW anything beyond 5-8m (Max) will likely cause signal degradation. I can’t imagine 8K content in the near future. If future proofing unless your source to display distance is not too far, then no fibre is not required, beyond that, for peace of mind, fibre is the way to go.



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Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments
Post by: kikoman on March 21, 2019, 07:29
My question is any improvement perhaps in PQ or reliability of the signal since you have a 10m cable length. Say compare it with the previous cable you own with same length. This is not using fibre right? FWIW anything beyond 5-8m (Max) will likely cause signal degradation. I can’t imagine 8K content in the near future. If future proofing unless your source to display distance is not too far, then no fibre is not required, beyond that, for peace of mind, fibre is the way to go.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It’s optic fibre and the range is 100m without signal loss. Very stable picture. Much better than my previous Aiborg. There is a chip in the plug itself to transfer the source signal to processor/projector. I plug straight into projector.
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments
Post by: desray on March 21, 2019, 08:24
It’s optic fibre and the range is 100m without signal loss. Very stable picture. Much better than my previous Aiborg. There is a chip in the plug itself to transfer the source signal to processor/projector. I plug straight into projector.

I see. Good sound investment. Thumbs up.


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Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments
Post by: petetherock on April 04, 2019, 13:07
Anyone care to crystal ball when HDMI 2.1 will hit the mainstream?
I see that TVs are now announcing 2.1
How about amps, BR players etc?
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments
Post by: desray on April 04, 2019, 23:30
Anyone care to crystal ball when HDMI 2.1 will hit the mainstream?
I see that TVs are now announcing 2.1
How about amps, BR players etc?


When there is 8K content...then we'll talk about HDMI 2.1. Now it seems like putting a cart in front of the horse.

Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments
Post by: YANG on April 05, 2019, 01:01
i thought 2.1 aids in “smoothing” higher bandwidth transfer of ATMOS thru Arc or something like that?
Title: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments
Post by: desray on April 05, 2019, 06:53
i thought 2.1 aids in “smoothing” higher bandwidth transfer of ATMOS thru Arc or something like that?

That’s part of the package as well. But the current HDMI 2.0a specs should suffice as far as the audio goes. All that extra bandwidth will have more impact in the video department. Imagine 4K/120fps?! Such high refresh rate, is our TV even capable to process I wonder?



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Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments
Post by: petetherock on April 05, 2019, 07:10
eARC is something I’ll like..
My current tv doesn’t have it..
but it’s too early to jump in right now..
Title: Re: HDMI discussion thread - including new developments
Post by: desray on April 05, 2019, 07:52
eARC is something I’ll like..
My current tv doesn’t have it..
but it’s too early to jump in right now..
Yes... For TV owners.

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Title: Just sharing lobang with all...
Post by: YANG on May 06, 2019, 16:25
Ver.2.0 HDMI from Verbatim with braided slim cable and small connector for TVs with tight space connection @ back.
(https://www.verbatim.com.au/media/catalog/product/cache/2/thumbnail/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/6/5/65671.jpg)
https://www.verbatim.com.sg/accessories/desktop-accessories/hdmi-cable/hdmi-2-0-4k-cable.html

Now available @ MUSTAFA @ $13.50, so far only 1 length of 1.8m available.