XtremePlace Forum

AV Galaxy => Planet Home Theater => Topic started by: desray on December 08, 2019, 19:57

Title: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: desray on December 08, 2019, 19:57
While I have recently discussed about the benefits of enabling Dynamic EQ (DEQ) in your AVR. For those not using miniDSP or equivalent device to create that "custom" house curve, you can still do so by using the Audyssey MultEQ Editor App (both iOS and Android available). The constant gripe that many Audyssey users faced is the lack of that "gritty" bass slam which occurs in the region of 20Hz to 55Hz thereabouts. Audyssey did a fantastic job in "flattening" the frequency response from 10Hz to 22KHz...sometimes too "good" can be a bad thing as it tends to rob you of the natural "room gain" that your your speakers and subwoofer(s) needed at the modal frequency range. This creates an anaemic bass. We have also learned about the "loudness perception of bass" at the lower spectrum of the frequency range. In gist, the lower the frequency, the more gain in SPL is needed to get the same level of loudness (with 1KHz range as the common baseline).

(https://cecm.indiana.edu/etext/acoustics/acoustics_images/ch1_images/Equal-loudness-curve.jpg)

To regain back those "room gain" that Audyssey destroys, we can "replenish" it using a DSP (e.g. miniDSP) or simply use Audyssey's very own MultEQ Editor app. The issue with the latter is the lack of online tutorial to teach us the basics of how to go about implementing a proper custom house curve and not to mention the endless frustration of using the App on a smaller screen like your smart phone or even a tablet if we are using our fingers to create that custom curve settings. I have recently came across a third party app styled, "Ratbuddyssey App" which is a Windows-based program albeit not perfect but does a few things right - e.g. setting precise Max EQ for the frequency range - e.g. from 20KHz down to say 250Hz/300Hz (Schroeder FR) as well as the ability to exact gains/cuts to the target Audyssey curve (Reference Curve).

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/MbRklIdvQpZqGF6NCStzHYl5-Z8cVq074YaZuuWRCRcE0yB88OHp3AaoNwpKT0xWo_0=s360-rw)

I will be covering a short tutorial on how to use the App itself to implement a custom house curve to regain that much-needed "ommph" back in the 20Hz to 55Hz range. This method will kind of "clash" with the DEQ-RLO concept which I have touched on a while ago. As such, we will be disabling DEQ if we wish to implement a custom house curve here. I have found a way to make this work the way I intended. So if you are interested to know how to do it, do stay tuned for the upcoming tutorial in due course...

 ;)
Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: winwinc81 on December 08, 2019, 20:26
Nice, this will be interesting!

Sent from my Asus ROG ll using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: ronildoq on December 09, 2019, 08:52
Nice sharing desray !! Good job! I’m sure this will help many people out there

One of the many reasons why I like to visit this forum, it’s AD free

Lotsa good technical knowledge too, and that kind gesture to continuously share that knowledge is what makes this place attractive

This subject definitely needs visiting .....
Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: sijusid on December 10, 2019, 16:04
Looking forward to this thread.

My relationship with deq is love and hate.

 I like the way it handles bass boosts, but don't like the way, it boosts surround channels. I usually compensate by lowering the surround channel levels. Like it better that way.
Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: winwinc81 on December 12, 2019, 13:42
am wondering, if can enable the DEQ, but without the bass... wont it be nice :P
Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: desray on December 21, 2019, 20:44
For those looking forward to this unofficial tutorial to create a custom house curve using just the Audyssey MultEQ Editor app, it will be out later tmr...working on it now as we speak. You will need the following:

1. Audyssey MultEQ Editor App (iOS and Android compatible - paidware)
2. Ratbuddyssey utility which can be downloaded from here: https://github.com/ratbuddy/ratbuddyssey/releases/tag/v0.2.1 (https://github.com/ratbuddy/ratbuddyssey/releases/tag/v0.2.1)
3. A Google Drive account
4. A laptop or PC with Windows OS installed - this is required since we will be using Ratbuddyssey utility which will run on a Windows OS

 ;)
Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: rayleh on December 21, 2019, 23:26
Can't wait for it, Desray. Thanks in advance!
Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: desray on December 22, 2019, 11:44
Sorry for the delay in making this tutorial...I've been kinda busy for the past few days. As mentioned earlier in this thread, Audyssey did a rather good job in "flattening" the frequency response from 10Hz all the way to 20,000Hz. Many did not realize that our speakers and subwoofers "interacts with our room" in ways that we may not realize. For instance, you may come across some AV articles that mentioned "room gain" which comes about when sound waves travels and bounce around within the confines of our listening area. Sometimes this so-called "room gains" is needed to in order to "preserve" that "chest slamming" bass that we seek while other times it can also work against us if we fail to "tame" it - i.e. the undesirable effects of boomy and bloasted bass in the frequency range that we wish we can avoid. This is where most EQ in the likes of Audyssey, YPAO, Anthem ARC Genesis etc comes in to eliminate those side-effects of poor room mode. In short, room gain can be an allied to us if we perform Audyssey EQ calibration correctly.

In order for us to get a "custom house curve" that fits our "room mode", the pre-requisites are to get your speakers and subwoofer placement correct and then perform a proper Audyssey calibration. One misconception - One cannot simply raise the subwoofers by a few dBs and hope to get that "chest-slamming" bass kick. As mentioned in my earlier posts, there are 2 ways to create custom house curves - one way is to get an external DSP like miniDSP which worked in tandem with Room EQ Wizard (REW) but it involves some learning curve to know how to use it. The other way which is much easier is the use of an app called "Audyssey MultEQ Editor" which is available for both iOS and Android users. Besides allowing users to perform Audyssey calibration by syncing the results with the AVR connected via our home Wi-Fi network, it also allows the users to make finer adjustments to the frequency curve (via Curve Editor feature found within the app itself), turn on/off the Mid-Range Compensation (MRC) or even dictates the frequency range for Audyssey EQ filters to be applied. Some speakers tends to perform better with music when there is no EQ filters being applied to a certain frequency range. Some purists even believe that the max frequency range for Audyssey EQ filters to be applied should fall somewhere within the Schroeder frequency which usually falls between 100Hz and 300Hz. In my opinion, a good starting point will be somewhere between 500Hz and 5,000Hz (ARC recommendation).

Of late, I discovered a nifty utility (not perfect though as the creator has no time to iron out some of the kinks but for the most part, the “key” features work so let’s cut him some slack :P ) called Ratbuddyssey which can be downloaded from here: https://github.com/ratbuddy/ratbuddyssey/releases/tag/v0.2.1 (https://github.com/ratbuddy/ratbuddyssey/releases/tag/v0.2.1). This little utility albeit "buggy" is a god-send imo. It allows us to make finer changes and adjustments on the original Audyssey calibration file (.ady) and then import back to the Audyssey MultEQ Editor App to be uploaded to our AVR. If you ask anyone what is the biggest gripe using the Audyssey MultEQ Editor App; most will say the App itself requires a larger screen estate like on a tablet to allow them to “see” and make changes to the frequency curve and even then, it is STILL hard to make some changes with precision using just our fingers or even a stylus. This is a real PITA if you ask me!

The Ratbuddyssey utility paired with Audyssey MultEQ Editor App certainly makes life a little easier for me these days since I can implement and test drive all variations of house curves within matters of minutes and that’s what makes it such a joy to use.

Enough said, let’s dive into the tutorial on how to setup a custom house curve using just the Audyssey MultEQ Editor App without the need for miniDSP (assumption made that you have already achieved a somewhat reasonably good frequency curve for your subwoofers AFTER Audyssey calibration and for that I meant you are able to get a reasonably “flat” response curve from 10Hz to 120Hz thereabouts.
Title: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: desray on December 22, 2019, 12:03
Let’s say that we want to boost the modal frequency range (say 20Hz – 50Hz) by +3db for our 2 subwoofer(s). The first thing you need to do is export the Audyssey calibration file (.ady) over to our laptop so that we can use the Ratbuddyssey utility to make finer adjustments to the curve. This is the preferred method over the use of the Curve Editor feature found in the Audyssey MultEQ Editor App. Although you can still use the Curve Editor feature found within the Audyssey MultEQ Editor App to create your custom house curve and it will still work...but you will probably get a headache trying to get the “boost” at the desired frequency center. So do yourself a favor by downloading the Ratduddyssey utility to your laptop/desktop PC before you read on...

How to export the (.ady) file? Simple, use the “Move to” function on the Audyssey MultEQ Editor App and then select the desired (.ady) file and then hit “Send a Copy”. You will see the option that says, “Copy to Drive” as in Google Drive. The (.ady) will now be exported from the App and into your Google Drive folder.
(https://i1.wp.com/fc01.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2012/136/3/a/google_drive_library_by_gsm2k-d500d7l.png)

Next, go to your laptop/desktop PC and open up a new session on the Ratbuddyssey. Select “File” then “Open” to select the (.ady) file in your Google Drive folder.

Once opened, you will see the interface will be populated with all your associated speakers and subwoofers which resides at the left pane of the utility.

(http://xtremeplace.ddns.net/images/misc/hse_curve/ratbuddyssey_gui2.jpg)

Next, uncheck the DynamicEQ (DEQ) checkbox. Ensure that the Audyssey Curve Type is set to “Flat” (default) instead of “Reference”. An optional setting like MRC (Mid-Range Compensation) can be turned off easily just by unchecking the check box and it will apply to all speakers. Make sure the Custom Speaker Type is set to “Small” for all the speakers (FL,C,FR, SLA,SRA,SBL,SBR etc) and the subwoofer(s) set to “Subwoofer”.

Next, set your Frequency Cut-off range for speakers (Only) to anything between 500Hz and 5,000Hz. I will advise the user to set it at 500Hz as a good starting point and slowly work your way up until you find a good “blend” where your Mains and the subwoofer(s) complements each other in a constructive manner. This is where the crossover points come in. To optimize your Mains crossover to the Subwoofer(s), you can use REW and Umik 1 to help you find the best crossover points (I will not be touching on this in details but I will share what I meant if there is enough interest being generated). Let’s just say that you decide to crossover your Mains at 80Hz (THX Fixed) so anything below 80Hz will go to the subwoofer(s) while anything above 80Hz will go to the Mains. As for subwoofer(s), make sure you restrict the Frequency Cut-off to either 200/250Hz.

The rest of the options remain intact...any changes like increasing the crossover and trim levels can be performed at the App level since it is much easier and intuitive. We mainly used Ratbuddyssey to allow us to make finer adjustments to our curve setting.

Now comes the important bit – i.e. boosting the level (SPL) by +3db (as an example). More often than not, the so-called “mid-bass punch” or “chest-slamusually falls anywhere between 20Hz and 70Hz. Depending on your crossovers between the Mains and the subwoofer(s) which is usually 80Hz for most bookshelf/tower speakers as well as its corresponding SPL levels, somewhere between 65Hz to 70Hz, we will start to see some roll-off if we set our crossovers to the ubiquitous 80Hz. Hence the safest region to implement a boost IMO will be somewhere between 20Hz and 60Hz. There is no right or wrong answer here, simply experiment it to hear for yourself which suits you better in your listening area. The keyword here is “your listening area”, not mine due to the difference in “room gain”.

In my room, I find 20Hz – 50Hz at a 3-4db boost to suit me the best in my listening environment (a typical 4 x 4 room layout). I can increase up to +6db if I truly want to feel more punch with a higher level (SPL). Sometimes, there is no need for you to go all the way to +6db boost if your subwoofer(s) is capable of outputting high levels (SPL) at a low-frequency range. So know your subwoofer’s capability and experiment it for yourself.

How to add the boost to the various frequency range for the subwoofer(s)? For this, you will go to the Target Curve Points panel located just below the Channels panel. Type in the following:

Frequency Center/Boost:
20Hz at +3db
50Hz at +3db
170Hz at 0db

What this does to your target curve can only be viewed after you have exported the modified (.ady) with the custom "house curve" back to the Audyssey MultEQ Editor App. Before we do that, we still need to apply the same amount of boost to the same set of frequency centers (20Hz, 50Hz, 170Hz & 400Hz) for the Mains like so:

Frequency Center/Boost:
20Hz at +3db
50Hz at +3db
170Hz at 0db
400Hz at 0db (assuming we set our Frequency Cut-off range at 500Hz)

Hold on, we are not done yet! Often overlooked by many users is to apply the same amount of boost to the subwoofer trim levels. The reason for that is because of the way the Audyssey MultEQ Editor App works. Let me explain as best as I could here...

(http://xtremeplace.ddns.net/images/misc/hse_curve/app_custom_sw.PNG)

When we boost the subwoofer(s) by +3db for frequency range from 20Hz and 50Hz, the Audyssey target curve will do a "self-course correction" by lowering the entire curve by the same amount of boost you applied. Why is this so? The reason behind this is simple. Audyssey is trying to ensure that the overall SPL level for the subwoofer(s) and the rest of the speaker arrays will “sound” the same at a given volume level. In so doing, whatever boost we have applied to the subwoofer(s) will not be translated to the “actual” results since there the boost to the target curve has been “pushed down” (becomes a cut)  by Audyssey. In order to overcome this, we have to apply the same amount of boost (in the is case +3db) to the trim levels of our subwoofer(s). So how do we do it? You can either do it at the App level or within the Ratbuddyssey itself. For the latter route, add +3db under the “Custom Level” text field. DO NOT simply at +3db and call it a day. Instead, you will need to add +3db to the original SW level.

For instance, if the initial trim level for your 2 subwoofers as follows:

Subwoofer 1 (SWMIX): -1.0
Subwoofer 2 (SWMIX): -2.0

You will need to add “+3db” to the original trim value which will give you:
Subwoofer 1 (SWMIX): +2.0
Subwoofer 2 (SWMIX): +1.0

That’s it! You are done! Click on “File” and “Save As” and give it a meaningful filename like Audy_DDMMYY_boost3db_DEQ_off.ady (as an example).

Next, export the modified (.ady) file – i.e. Audy_DDMMYY_boost3db_DEQ_off.ady to the same Google Drive folder.

(http://xtremeplace.ddns.net/images/misc/hse_curve/export.JPG)

Once the export is completed. Do the following:

    - Select the “” icon to the right of the file
(http://xtremeplace.ddns.net/images/misc/hse_curve/open_in.JPG)
- Select the “open in” option; it will prepare to export the file

(http://xtremeplace.ddns.net/images/misc/hse_curve/more.JPG)
- Swipe to the right and Select “More

(http://xtremeplace.ddns.net/images/misc/hse_curve/copy_to_multeq.JPG)
- Select the “Copy to MultEQ” option

(http://xtremeplace.ddns.net/images/misc/hse_curve/app_curves.PNG)
- The Audyssey MultEQ Editor App will automatically be launched and append the new (.ady) calibration file – i.e. Audy_DDMMYY_boost3db_DEQ_off.ady into the main screen

[Skip this step] if you have already add the boost amount on Ratbuddyssey...
If you have not yet added the boost of +3.0db to the trim levels for your subwoofer(s), now is the time to do so by going over to “Speaker Detection Results” option and go to the second tab that allows you to change the Levels (SPL) settings to reflect the same:
Subwoofer 1 (SWMIX): +2.0
Subwoofer 2 (SWMIX): +1.0

Once that is done, import the new modified (.ady) calibration file over to the AVR. You are done!

What’s next?
Play some familiar 2 channel music...set the Sound Mode to “Stereo” or “Direct” and then “Pure Direct” (cut off subwoofers and set the Mains to LARGE), feel and hear the difference that your Mains (after adding a +3db boost to the modal frequency range – i.e. 20Hz and 50Hz), you should “feel” and hear a much more impactful low extension coming from your Mains (especially for those who have a pair of tower-sized speakers or bookshelf speakers that can go down to 40Hz and below).

After the 2 channel test, you can put in a movie like the Opening scene of Edge of Tomorrow or the famous True Legend fight scene that I know many XP members adore...Hear the difference and I can almost guarantee you that you will hear a significant difference in the low-frequency extension that DEQ cannot provide.

Take your time to slowly digest it...Post any questions if you have any.
Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: desray on December 22, 2019, 12:54
Additional Tips:

1. Try as many variations in boost as possible using one session and then export the modified (.ady) calibration files to the Google Drive folder to be imported into the Audyssey MultEQ Editor App for A/B comparison.

2.DO NOT remove the original Audyssey calibration file...

3.Do A/B comparison between "flat" Audyssey Reference Target Curve and the new custom "Reference Target House Curve". This will allow for a more objective assessment.
Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: sijusid on December 22, 2019, 16:37
@desray
Thanks for the guide and tips.
Appreciate your efforts.

One question, the boost for the mains, shouldn't this be proportional to the rated FR of the speaker. I mean, if the fronts are rated up to 40hz or 30hz, shouldn't we start the boost from there, or it dosent really matter?
Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: desray on December 22, 2019, 19:34

One question, the boost for the mains, shouldn't this be proportional to the rated FR of the speaker. I mean, if the fronts are rated up to 40hz or 30hz, shouldn't we start the boost from there, or it doesn't really matter?

It really depends on what crossover you have set for your Mains to crossover. What is your Mains crossover? If you truly want to know what is the best level (SPL) and at what frequency to introduce the boost...you need to utilize REW with a calibrated mic like Umik 1. Take note, you don't really need to increase by the "same amount" of boost (SPL level) for your Mains...the key here is to try and get the level (SPL) for the Mains to be more or less within the same level as the Subwoofer(s) output level (after boosting it by 3db in this case).
Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: desray on December 22, 2019, 19:40
I may consider to open up a demo session next Sat (28 Dec 19) to showcase the difference between Audyssey with DEQ set to 'On' but no house curve (since DEQ is in itself a house curve) versus Audyssey with DEQ turned 'off' but utilize a custom house curve. Of course, for those who want to learn to add a custom house curve but don't know what the heck am I talking about in those steps, I will run through a hands on session with you as well.

See if there is any interest here...
Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: sevenz on December 22, 2019, 22:07
wow nice. thanks for documenting & creating this for the benefit for all in XP bro.

Super useful esp for those who wants to deploy house curve in an easy way
Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: sijusid on December 23, 2019, 10:01
It really depends on what crossover you have set for your Mains to crossover. What is your Mains crossover? If you truly want to know what is the best level (SPL) and at what frequency to introduce the boost...you need to utilize REW with a calibrated mic like Umik 1. Take note, you don't really need to increase by the "same amount" of boost (SPL level) for your Mains...the key here is to try and get the level (SPL) for the Mains to be more or less within the same level as the Subwoofer(s) output level (after boosting it by 3db in this case).

Thanks once again for your write-up.

The windows program is quite good and easy for tweaking, but unfortunately, it didn't worked for me. After uploading the tweaked file to my avr through app, there was no sound coming through any of the speaker. Couldn't figure out the reason.

So i had to do it the difficult way of tweaking it in app itself. I have extensively used the app before and so i am quite used to editing the curve on my mobile (however i do agree that windows program is much easier).

Before your write up, i too used to give a similar boost on my mains. Subwoofer also, i had tried earlier, but could never hear any difference, the reason i now know why, thanks to you.

For my case, i had to give 5db boost across the mains and subwoofer, to get it sound the way i like. I boosted from 20 to 70 hz on subs and 35 to 70hz on my mains.

Personally, i always used deq before, but only like it for bass but didn't liked it the way it  boosts high frequencies (more shrill sound). Also the boost in surround channel was a bit annoying for me.

But now, without deq and curve tweaks, bass is more tight and highs are controlled.

Thanks once again. Couldn't have asked for better holiday gift. It worked for me and i am sure, it will work for others too.
Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: sijusid on December 23, 2019, 10:06
I may consider to open up a demo session next Sat (28 Dec 19) to showcase the difference between Audyssey with DEQ set to 'On' but no house curve (since DEQ is in itself a house curve) versus Audyssey with DEQ turned 'off' but utilize a custom house curve. Of course, for those who want to learn to add a custom house curve but don't know what the heck am I talking about in those steps, I will run through a hands on session with you as well.

See if there is any interest here...

If the session is arranged, if you dont mind, i would like to come and attend this session.

Thank you very much.
Title: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: desray on December 23, 2019, 11:33
Thanks once again for your write-up.

The windows program is quite good and easy for tweaking, but unfortunately, it didn't worked for me. After uploading the tweaked file to my avr through app, there was no sound coming through any of the speaker. Couldn't figure out the reason.

Personally, i always used deq before, but only like it for bass but didn't liked it the way it  boosts high frequencies (more shrill sound). Also the boost in surround channel was a bit annoying for me.

But now, without deq and curve tweaks, bass is more tight and highs are controlled.


I know what is the problem with no sound AFTER you upload the .ady file to your AVR. There is a workaround.l and you’ll be surprised how easy it is.

As for the DEQ engaged and causing the HF region to be “bright”. You will need to play with the max Frequency Range where you want the EQ to be applied. Good sounding speakers requires little to no EQ filters to be applied anywhere from 500Hz and above. However, if due to poor placement location or the lack of acoustic treatments or perhaps the room that your speaker placements isn’t ideal causing a myriad of room mode issues, then EQ all the way to say 5KHz will help to make the sound tighter and play with more finesse. Different type of speaker driver design like MTM or coaxial etc will produce different results based in “your” room mode. What sounds good in your setting probably sound bad for me. Hence, it is more important to understand the underlying concepts that matters and not how much money you spent on your AV gears.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: desray on December 23, 2019, 11:34
If the session is arranged, if you dont mind, i would like to come and attend this session.

Thank you very much.

I will keep you posted if it materialise.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: desray on December 23, 2019, 11:44
For those on the fence to try out perhaps due to bad past experience which did not work, I would encourage you to try again. BTW, if you do this custom house curve thing say 6 months ago. Do take note that there was a bug where the 20Hz (modal region) will have a dip of 3db registered which weakens the “tactile” impact. This has been fixed in the last few updates. FWIW the updates for the Audyssey MultEQ Editor App itself has had undergone 2 rounds of software updates and the AVR (X8500H) has had undergone a few updates as well over the course of 6 mths.

Like everyone else, I’ve tried the custom curve editor to boost the bass but the results did not impress me at all. But now, it is a whole different story. You’ve nothing to lose for trying again, especially if you have already paid for the Audyssey MultEQ Editor App.

For those who have a UMiK 1 calibrated mic, I urged you to download the REW to do some measurements to get good placement for your subwoofers and speakers before doing your Audyssey 6-8 pt calibrations. Garbage-in, Garbage-out. The end result of a good custom house curve will still rely on good data sets derived from Audyssey calibration result to begin with. So if you have less than ideal results after Audyssey calibration, do consider optimising it first and then come back to this portion to introduce a custom house curve through the use of the App and Ratbuddysset utility.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: sijusid on December 23, 2019, 12:34
I know what is the problem with no sound AFTER you upload the .ady file to your AVR. There is a workaround.l and you’ll be surprised how easy it is.

As for the DEQ engaged and causing the HF region to be “bright”. You will need to play with the max Frequency Range where you want the EQ to be applied. Good sounding speakers requires little to no EQ filters to be applied anywhere from 500Hz and above. However, if due to poor placement location or the lack of acoustic treatments or perhaps the room that your speaker placements isn’t ideal causing a myriad of room mode issues, then EQ all the way to say 5KHz will help to make the sound tighter and play with more finesse. Different type of speaker driver design like MTM or coaxial etc will produce different results based in “your” room mode. What sounds good in your setting probably sound bad for me. Hence, it is more important to understand the underlying concepts that matters and not how much money you spent on your AV gears.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

May i know, what is the workaround.

Totally agree with you. Since i stay at a rented place, there is not much i can do for room treatment, so trying to make most of the present situation.
Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: desray on December 23, 2019, 12:38
May i know, what is the workaround.

Totally agree with you. Since i stay at a rented place, there is not much i can do for room treatment, so trying to make most of the present situation.

The workaround is NOT TO CLICK SAVE for every session. Instead just click SAVE AS for every variation you’ve created and then upload it to the Google Drive or equivalent. Always worked on the “base calibration file”.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: rayleh on December 24, 2019, 08:14
Same situation too. Did manual editing of the house curve on the app and turned off DEQ, quite impressive I must say. Now to try the workaround. Thanks again Desray.
Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: winwinc81 on December 24, 2019, 08:21
Awesome write up and effort desray! I've not been using the app due to Android bug, but this definitely gives me the chance to try again. Since I'm not a DEQ users, it'll be interesting to see how much further I can improve!

Thanks once again for this tutorial. I'll be interested to join if you ever conduct a lesson.

Sent from my Asus ROG ll using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: sijusid on December 24, 2019, 09:13
The workaround is NOT TO CLICK SAVE for every session. Instead just click SAVE AS for every variation you’ve created and then upload it to the Google Drive or equivalent. Always worked on the “base calibration file”.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hi desray,

The workaround didn't worked out for me. Then i noticed that there is no sound only in reference setting. If i change it to flat or off, sound would be there.

I had also noticed that, whenever i opened the ady file in windows program, by default both reference and flat would not be selected, and i used to select reference as per your write up. This time i left it as it is (both reference and flat unchecked) and guess what, it worked this time.
I was able to get sound from all settings.
Then was able to do many trials and then stick to one i liked.

Thanks once again to you.

Now i am out of deq. Never going back to DEQ again.
Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: rayleh on December 24, 2019, 10:07
One question; do I need to do anything for surround and front height since the speakers roll-off much earlier?
Title: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: desray on December 24, 2019, 12:17
Hi desray,

The workaround didn't worked out for me. Then i noticed that there is no sound only in reference setting. If i change it to flat or off, sound would be there.

I had also noticed that, whenever i opened the ady file in windows program, by default both reference and flat would not be selected, and i used to select reference as per your write up. This time i left it as it is (both reference and flat unchecked) and guess what, it worked this time.
I was able to get sound from all settings.

Then was able to do many trials and then stick to one i liked.

Thanks once again to you.

Now i am out of deq. Never going back to DEQ again.

As mentioned in my earlier post, the Ratbuddyssey is buggy hence pls do stick to what works best for you. In fact, you’ve just helped others by surfacing this “bug” and a new workaround.

I’m glad you like the results. Cheers.


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Title: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: desray on December 24, 2019, 12:25
One question; do I need to do anything for surround and front height since the speakers roll-off much earlier?

No need. The point of doing it for the Mains is because of 2 channel listening (when engaging Stereo, Pure Direct). The rest of the speakers don’t require boosting simply because we don’t actually expect surrounds and heights to reproduce deep bass (crossovers can sometimes be as high as 100hz or higher). As for the centre channel, it depends since centre speaker placement is usually closer to the wall which reinforces bass. Look at the final target curve and decide for yourself whether there is a need to boost a few dB in the modal region to get a more uniform bass reproduction when the subwoofers have been boosted.

Ultimately, it will involve some trial and error since it very much depends on your room mode and how capable is/are your subwoofer(s) in playing deep bass. What works for me does not necessarily work for you. Some only boosted by 2db while others need to boost as high as 6db to get that ULF.



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Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: desray on December 24, 2019, 12:30
Awesome write up and effort desray! I've not been using the app due to Android bug, but this definitely gives me the chance to try again. Since I'm not a DEQ users, it'll be interesting to see how much further I can improve!

Thanks once again for this tutorial. I'll be interested to join if you ever conduct a lesson.

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I would really love to hear your comments on how you find the results compared to the use of miniDSP in constructing the custom house curve.



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Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: rayleh on December 24, 2019, 12:31
Thanks. I will try out later.


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Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: sevenz on December 24, 2019, 14:07
I would really love to hear your comments on how you find the results compared to the use of miniDSP in constructing the custom house curve.



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Ya me too. Plus this is such low cost solution! Power.
Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: winwinc81 on December 24, 2019, 23:54
Oh... Though I sell them, but I don't use them as my power amp for the subs are already taken care by the inbuilt DSP. Behringer NX6000D. Not as user friendly as the minidsp 2x4HD when comes to configuration (the granularity of volume and control is better than behringer), will be quite a learning curve for first time user if using behringer... Lol

But I guess i still can test, I'll just disable the DSP function on the behringer and use the app to test.

Will feedback my findings once I've tried. :)

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Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: desray on December 25, 2019, 07:42
Oh... Though I sell them, but I don't use them as my power amp for the subs are already taken care by the inbuilt DSP. Behringer NX6000D. Not as user friendly as the minidsp 2x4HD when comes to configuration (the granularity of volume and control is better than behringer), will be quite a learning curve for first time user if using behringer... Lol

But I guess i still can test, I'll just disable the DSP function on the behringer and use the app to test.

Will feedback my findings once I've tried. :)

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Ok noted.


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Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: desray on January 11, 2020, 16:31
Bug Found!
Recently I checked back the thread on Audyssey MultEQ Editor App and a prominent bug that affects the subwoofer distance has been extensively discussed. The issue occurred with dual subwoofers. If you are using a single subwoofer, this calibration bug will not affect final Audyssey results. Since most of us are using 2 subwoofers these days, I thought it becomes an important thing that I should point out. Take note this will ONLY affect the final calibration results if you used the Audyssey MultEQ Editor App to perform the calibration.

Incorrect Subwoofer Distance
The anomaly happens when the nearest of the 2 subwoofers is connected to SW1 (Pre-Out). It gives out an accurate distance reading. But this bug DOES NOT affect the traditional route of calibration - i.e. calibrating using the AVR interface. The bug causes the distance to increase (less delay being introduced when the opposite should be happening). Unless your subwoofers are placed almost equidistant from the MLP, you want to re-do your Audyssey calibration again.

Workaround
The temporary workaround is to ensure the "nearest" subwoofer of the two is connected to SW1 (Pre-Out) instead of SW2 (Pre-Out). I have tested using the traditional route of calibration which uses the AVR interface and affirmed that the distance for the nearest subwoofer is indeed a bit screwed up.

Extra Tip to get a better subwoofer response
While we are aware of this subwoofer distance bug, it is by no means unusable. Now that we know there is a workaround, we can quickly remedy the situation using the workaround I've described. Calibration using the App is preferred as it unlocks more features as I've previously covered in this thread. Back to the topic of getting a better subwoofer FR...After calibration, check to see that both your subwoofer trim levels are always in the negative range. This provides greater headroom for the Audyssey house curve to be optimized. Anywhere between -3.5 and -1.0 will be good. If you have a positive trim value, try to increase physical gain knob on the subwoofers to compensate.

Hope it helps for those using this Audssey App to create custom house curve.
Title: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: desray on January 22, 2020, 06:46
I’m surprised to find that my tutorial has had caught the attention of AVSForum members there.

MultEQ Editor: New App for Denon & Marantz AV Receivers & Pre/Pros
 https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/topic?share_fid=47413&share_tid=2806249&share_pid=59125874&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eavsforum%2Ecom%2Fforum%2Fshowthread%2Ephp%3Fp%3D59125874&share_type=t&link_source=app

Glad to know that our little hobbyist community is able to contribute to the AV community in general.


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Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: desray on January 25, 2020, 08:44
Made some changes to the tutorial on the part that touches on the “flat” or “reference” curve type. Pls revisit the post on the changes made.



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Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: sevenz on January 25, 2020, 23:23
So good. I'll try this one day. So cost effective to have a bass house curve.

Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: rayleh on January 26, 2020, 07:21
I must say it is very good. I simply love it and enjoy it!
Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: desray on January 26, 2020, 07:40
I must say it is very good. I simply love it and enjoy it!

Oh you’ve tried it? Can to share your experience?



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Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: rayleh on January 26, 2020, 08:40
Bass is more define and clean. Dialogue is also much clearer. Couldn't hear any boomy bass. Now I can listen at 20-25db or higher whereas last time, I can only listen to max 38db. I just feel fatigued and I can feel the sound piercing my ears . Now I can hear the defined waves of bass from the space shuttle taking off for example. I have set the mains, center and sub at 5db gain, dynamic volume at light with sub level an equivalent of 5db gain. Now is definitely much much better than having the Dynamic EQ turned on.
Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: sevenz on January 26, 2020, 14:07
are there any bros who are/were using a DSP e.g. MiniDSP 2x4HD, or Antimode DC, and have used tried this Audyssey and Rat app combi to compare? Interested to hear your opinions before trying.

Nowadays due to young kids at home, really not much time to test what I love to do in HT compared to last time. :| So if can hear opinions first before testing, it will be great
Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: rayleh on January 26, 2020, 14:16
I have miniDsp to tune / align my dual subs. House curve is still implemented through Audyessy Editor App.


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Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: desray on January 26, 2020, 15:36
are there any bros who are/were using a DSP e.g. MiniDSP 2x4HD, or Antimode DC, and have used tried this Audyssey and Rat app combi to compare? Interested to hear your opinions before trying.

Nowadays due to young kids at home, really not much time to test what I love to do in HT compared to last time. :| So if can hear opinions first before testing, it will be great

Actually I’m tying to get my hands on a second hand miniDSP to try it out for myself to see if the Audyssey App can deliver pretty much the same results as a miniDSP. If it ever happen, I will definitely provide my 2 cents worth in comparing the 2 methods. But I’ll not go out to buy a new miniDSP for the sake of this comparison as it makes no sense for me since I have no problem with standing wave in the modal frequency region that the Audyssey cannot take care.



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Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: desray on January 26, 2020, 15:37
Bass is more define and clean. Dialogue is also much clearer. Couldn't hear any boomy bass. Now I can listen at 20-25db or higher whereas last time, I can only listen to max 38db. I just feel fatigued and I can feel the sound piercing my ears . Now I can hear the defined waves of bass from the space shuttle taking off for example. I have set the mains, center and sub at 5db gain, dynamic volume at light with sub level an equivalent of 5db gain. Now is definitely much much better than having the Dynamic EQ turned on.

Glad to hear another success story. Hopefully we can look at Audyssey in a different light now.



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Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: desray on January 26, 2020, 15:39
I have miniDsp to tune / align my dual subs. House curve is still implemented through Audyessy Editor App.


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So that is to say the Audyssey app with house curve DOES compliment with miniDSP in your case? If so, that’s great news.



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Title: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: rayleh on January 26, 2020, 15:40
Actually I’m tying to get my hands on a second hand miniDSP to try it out for myself to see if the Audyssey App can deliver pretty much the same results as a miniDSP. If it ever happen, I will definitely provide my 2 cents worth in comparing the 2 methods. But I’ll not go out to buy a new miniDSP for the sake of this comparison as it makes no sense for me since I have no problem with standing wave in the modal frequency region that the Audyssey cannot take care.



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The thing if miniDsp 2x4 HD cannot apply house curve to mains, center and subs at the same time or did I miss out anything? So I have used the Editor App to apply house curve for mains, center and subs.


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Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: rayleh on January 26, 2020, 15:42
So that is to say the Audyssey app with house curve DOES compliment with miniDSP in your case? If so, that’s great news.



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Yes, it does at least for me. You can tweak the subs before you run Audyssey which I did for my case. I know there are some people who will run Audyessy and then use the miniDsp to fine-tune the subs.


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Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: desray on January 26, 2020, 15:43
I will like to clarify that With DEQ engages, one can still achieve very good sound and bass response except for the lower frequency region where most of us feel Audyssey EQ have overdone it, meaning flatten from 10Hz to 22KHz. If your room has a particular “room gain” to take advantage, you can try this method (No DEQ but built your own house curve) to see if it works for you, otherwise use DEQ for better sound overall.



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Title: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: desray on January 26, 2020, 15:48
Yes, it does at least for me. You can tweak the subs before you run Audyssey which I did for my case. I know there are some people who will run Audyessy and then use the miniDsp to fine-tune the subs.


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Not true, what you did is correct and I will do the same as well. You can use either a REW with Umik1 or miniDSP to measure the non Audyssey EQ frequency response for your subwoofers to get a good sense of where to place the subwoofers  to avoid standing waves or null position. Once that is done, then proceed to do Audyssey calibration. This will definitely take the guess work out of the equation even BEFORE you commence your Audyssey calibration.



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Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: depechefan on April 07, 2020, 17:16
Hi,

Thanks for this information. I tried to follow the guide to create a house curve to use in the Audyssey app. Boosting bass by 3 db at 20 and 50 Hz. This to me gives a much more natural sound than using DEQ. So I have 3 questions:


Thanks again. I am so far loving the new target curve!

/M
Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: desray on April 07, 2020, 18:52
Is it still normal to have to increase the level of the centre speaker? I still like to get a little dialog/vocal enhancement
Ans: You can either engage Dialog Enhancer and set it to "Medium" for more clarity in dialog OR you can try to set Dynamic Volume to "Light".

I've read about the midrange compensation. I don't understand the use of this. It seems counter-intuitive to me to enable this when I have the need to raise the level of the centre speaker...?
Ans: If you have a good pair of speakers with a relatively flat response; there is really no need to use Mid-range Compensation (MRC).

Is there still a need to use DEQ when you make these manual changes? It sounds like people are still enabling it. I prefer not to - especially for music (surround music) because I experience that details are lost.
Ans: Yes, you can disable DEQ altogether once you implement the house curve.
Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: depechefan on April 08, 2020, 00:54
Thanks for the answers, desray. Haven't yet measured with REW but curious to see what my graph looks like now :-)

Trying to decide if I should use a 4 or 5 db boost. Probably prefer 4 for music and 5 for movies :-)

/M
Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: desray on April 08, 2020, 08:58
Thanks for the answers, desray. Haven't yet measured with REW but curious to see what my graph looks like now :-)

Trying to decide if I should use a 4 or 5 db boost. Probably prefer 4 for music and 5 for movies :-)

/M

I'm using a +6db boost at the moment.

When measuring with REW, make sure you disable Audyssey first before you get subwoofer readings from a few seating positions. Average out the readings. Thereafter engage Audyssey and then take another reading...making sure there is no "major" null or spike at the modal frequency range. If you have good LCR speakers, limit the frequency range to around 300Hz or 500Hz max...and let the speakers take over. Anything beyond that, the room mode will take over and sometimes, it is for the best. Experiment - trial and error...
Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: depechefan on April 08, 2020, 16:14
Thanks for the tips. Will measure this in the next couple of days. Do you add the same boost to the centre channel? I've only done it for LR + sub at this point. Sounds good to my ears but just wondering.

/M
Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: desray on April 08, 2020, 18:49
Thanks for the tips. Will measure this in the next couple of days. Do you add the same boost to the centre channel? I've only done it for LR + sub at this point. Sounds good to my ears but just wondering.

/M

No.
Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: depechefan on April 09, 2020, 18:15
So I've been measuring my sub in the position I found to be the best. I tried your suggestion and measured 4 different positions. I must say that I get some very poor results depending on my seating position so I will need to think about where to place it again. I can share the graphs for the different positions later. It probably also illustrates very well why I need another sub.

If I concentrate on the main listening position then it's a little surprising to me that there isn't a bigger difference between the manual implementation and the default Audyssey graph. These are my results:

https://1drv.ms/u/s!Aly2HCHRkhMrjZoOjLFIaXKmRJ7M6A?e=OiDWTE

The bottom one is Audyssey with DEQ turned off, the purple one is my manually created one with a bass boost of 5 db at 20 and 50 Hz. The green one is Audyssey default with DEQ off-set at 15 db and the top red one is Audyssey default with DEQ at 0 db off-set. So the default with DEQ at 15 db is almost similar to the one I implemented manually. I have not had time to do a full sweep and I haven't yet tried to listen to the different configurations. I guess I should try to cut off the default Audyssey implementation so it doesn't modify things above 500 Hz to see if that makes a positive difference.

So a little unsure where to go from here :-)

/M
Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: ronildoq on April 19, 2020, 10:30
In my exercise recently with subwoofers and house curve, the other thing that popped up mind was there is also another way to have a natural “house curve” without using any EQ.

Suggestion would be to stack or co-locate two subwoofers at the location where bass is stronger <40hz, or below 30hz , then use a single subwoofer where it’s strong at the region > 40hz, this then provides a natural Low frequency rising curve, without the need to apply any boosting or Low shelf filters

 Methodology has been proven to be effective, Hope that helps !
Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: desray on April 19, 2020, 10:56
In my exercise recently with subwoofers and house curve, the other thing that popped up mind was there is also another way to have a natural “house curve” without using any EQ.

Suggestion would be to stack or co-locate two subwoofers at the location where bass is stronger <40hz, or below 30hz , then use a single subwoofer where it’s strong at the region > 40hz, this then provides a natural Low frequency rising curve, without the need to apply any boosting or Low shelf filters

 Methodology has been proven to be effective, Hope that helps !

Your method may need > 2 subwoofers (typical setup for most of us). 2 pairs of identical make/model of subwoofers will be ideal for it to work :)


Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: ronildoq on May 05, 2020, 22:33
OK, lets check out some house curve. The below are links for target curve, by Harman. Its a good starting point, there are 4 version of it:

The first, a +4db Boost
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1oqShNJp24MnqbzpjZSKMelA2RP5hmIXT/view?usp=sharing

Here is how it looks
(https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1SRpca9OLgSQW97u7K6ZmuOcbhwCBCufk)

The Second, +6db Boost. (this is used and recommended by Lyngdorf)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JYdpu96G_varrrzykgPCk0mbL7RQeFHV/view?usp=sharing

(https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1l0rlqklWUwAGaHi6MOvjkn96k1_H4VkT)

The 3rd +8db
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PmWGBHwncZF_tylgytIyJHCJCzNDlCEZ/view?usp=sharing

(https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1A4l-uK67vHntazKLfZTWWKct8PPTseYK)

Fourth +10db
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vZNuejl7kxz0jhedBlB0W0AwIJyaCf1N/view?usp=sharing

(https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=19Hrl-rPnhGRbk431KBDf5zc7h6_CkJTc)

Thats a good starting point, these have been proven to be fav among many home listeners, esp the +8 boost target.

Enjoy testing your new target curves during CB period

Personally, i went with the +6db recommended by Lyngdorf, and i added in a secondary knee, +6db from 30 -10hz using the built in EQ curve from Seatons for ULF. So total im having a +12db, but the seatons only plays +6db from the housecurve

Photos resized to fit
Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: desray on May 06, 2020, 15:53
Thanks Roni for sharing...and yes, I find +6db to be the "sweet-spot". Tried +8db that indeed gave me more rumble but I have my bass shakers to take care of the tactile effects for below 20Hz.
Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: rayleh on May 06, 2020, 15:55
Thanks Roni for sharing...and yes, I find +6db to be the "sweet-spot". Tried +8db that indeed gave me more rumble but I have my bass shakers to take care of the tactile effects for below 20Hz.
So you turn off the DEQ and add-in the House Curve?


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Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: desray on May 06, 2020, 16:08
So you turn off the DEQ and add-in the House Curve?


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Yep. Only if you apply the house curve otherwise I will advise to turn in DEQ to get Audyssey to dynamically boost the sub bass region (20Hz - 60hz) whenever a movie is being played. The choice is up to individual taste. It doesn’t mean DEQ is bad.


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Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: rayleh on May 06, 2020, 16:17
Yep. Only if you apply the house curve otherwise I will advise to turn in DEQ to get Audyssey to dynamically boost the sub bass region (20Hz - 60hz) whenever a movie is being played. The choice is up to individual taste. It doesn’t mean DEQ is bad.


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Yes, I am aware of that. Thanks.


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Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: desray on May 06, 2020, 16:18
Yes, I am aware of that. Thanks.


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 :)
Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: ronildoq on May 07, 2020, 11:56
Thanks Roni for sharing...and yes, I find +6db to be the "sweet-spot". Tried +8db that indeed gave me more rumble but I have my bass shakers to take care of the tactile effects for below 20Hz.

+6 is nice, I find it nice too, enjoy ! +8 is the fav so far from the polls, but +6 not too far behind
Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: Paradox on May 09, 2020, 00:07
Thank you desray for taking the time to write up all these guides on Audyssey. I set this up yesterday and I was blown away by the results. Being a very mid-bass oriented person, I must say your tutorial is a must-do for all owners of an Audyssey receiver.

I started with a +4db, but went down to +3db and now am settled at +2db. Even that little +2db makes a such a difference to me. It could be that I have just installed bass shakers so the +2db affects both the bass shaker and the oomph from the sub. I am also wondering why+2db had such a big difference to me and the only other reason I could think of is the antimode for my subs where the calibraiton has lifted both my 25hz and 35hz range, so maybe there's some sort of added effect. 
Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: desray on May 09, 2020, 11:36
Thank you desray for taking the time to write up all these guides on Audyssey. I set this up yesterday and I was blown away by the results. Being a very mid-bass oriented person, I must say your tutorial is a must-do for all owners of an Audyssey receiver.

I started with a +4db, but went down to +3db and now am settled at +2db. Even that little +2db makes a such a difference to me. It could be that I have just installed bass shakers so the +2db affects both the bass shaker and the oomph from the sub. I am also wondering why+2db had such a big difference to me and the only other reason I could think of is the antimode for my subs where the calibraiton has lifted both my 25hz and 35hz range, so maybe there's some sort of added effect. 

Thanks. Glad that it helped you in some ways.

:)
Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: desray on May 09, 2020, 14:52
Another AVSForum member that goes by the moniker (LaserCuruGuy) did some refinement work to the codes and added a reference curve to the Ratbudyssey app. Those interested can download the newer version (with some bugs fixed) here: https://github.com/LaserGuruGuy/ratbuddyssey/releases/tag/0.3.0.3 (https://github.com/LaserGuruGuy/ratbuddyssey/releases/tag/0.3.0.3)


Cheers!~

Title: Re: Audyssey House Curve Revisited...
Post by: sevenz on May 09, 2020, 15:53
I am also wondering why+2db had such a big difference to me and the only other reason I could think of is the antimode for my subs where the calibraiton has lifted both my 25hz and 35hz range, so maybe there's some sort of added effect.

Glad u are liking the house curve. Great!

the +2db - did u do it using audyssey app? Or using the antimode lift function? Which antimode are u using
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