XtremePlace Forum

AV Galaxy => Planet Home Theater => Topic started by: kennyluck2000 on April 26, 2019, 23:46

Title: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: kennyluck2000 on April 26, 2019, 23:46
I have a friend once tell me why you still need room treatment when you have room correction software to do the job... ::) ::) ::)
Any advise on which option can provide your system with a better SQ given a choice to choose over another?
Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: rayleh on April 27, 2019, 00:10
To me, it should be a balance between both. Room treatment has more to consider like WAF while room EQ is easier to implement. Both have limitations and they will kind of complement each other. My 2 cents worth of opinion.
Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: YANG on April 27, 2019, 00:15
Room treatment benefits others. Especially those whom complains on noise/sound leak disturbance.
Room calibration benefits one self. Where one's sweetspot often affected by speakers placement as well as room limitations interference.
Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: wechnivag on April 27, 2019, 08:19
I think both is required. There are issues that can NOT be solved, and should NOT be tackled using EQ. The only way to solve these problems is via proper setup, acoustic treatment etc.

While state of the art dsp like dirac etc can work some wonders in an otherwise bare room, the best results will still be achieved with combined of EQ After proper treatment and setup. No shortcuts.

It is the foundation, can't build a good structure with a shaky foundation.

Sent from my X9009 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: wechnivag on April 27, 2019, 08:27
Room treatment benefits others. Especially those whom complains on noise/sound leak disturbance.
Room calibration benefits one self. Where one's sweetspot often affected by speakers placement as well as room limitations interference.
Actually there is a difference between acoustic treatment for performance, and noise isolation, which does not directly benefit performance.

Typically, there is some cross benefits. Treatment for acoustic performance does have benefits of reducing noise leakage, it just sounds less loud outside because of the reduction reverberation.

Sent from my X9009 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: desray on April 27, 2019, 09:29
I have a friend once tell me why you still need room treatment when you have room correction software to do the job... ::) ::) ::)
Any advise on which option can provide your system with a better SQ given a choice to choose over another?

The phrasing of the question is "abit off" to begin with. You make it sound like it is an "either-or" when in actual fact, you should be asking whether it is worth spending additional money for room treatment. And the answer is yes if room calibration is unable to solve some of the frequency range that exist in your listening environment. But bear in mind that sometimes the easiest tweak is to move your listening position (MLP) - which doesn't cost you anything :P

First and foremost, room calibration comes as a package (whether it is Audyssey, AccuEQ, YPAO, MCACC, RoomEQ, ARC etc) as long you are using a digital amp/AVR. Room treatment is usually an "on-going" endeavour. You may (at your best interest and effort) to do some room treatment like carpet, thick drapes/curtains, furnishings and perhaps a couple of diffusors and absorbers for starters to reduce echo, reverberations and boundary gains in those corners respectively. This will inevitably benefit the room calibration as half the battle is won if you do your ground work properly at the beginning.

Now comes to post-room treatment option AFTER you get a sense of what your room is capable and lacking. If you are satisfy with your pre-room treatment, there is really no need to spend more money. However if it is the latter, then extra room treatment may benefit you. First you will have to start to experiment with strategic placement of acoustic panels/materials to treat the "existing" problems you encounter; with the help of REW if you know how to use it.

In short, get a good room calibration to do a proper EQ is a must and spend "sensibly" on room treatment depending on the type of problems or issues you've encountered along the way.
Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: petetherock on April 27, 2019, 09:36
To Ts
My question is: is your “friend” a pro in this line?
As bro Des mentioned, it’s not a throwaway line like that.
Neither are a one time press button solution where you simply do it and viola! Your system is fine.
If you read this forum regularly, it takes EFFORT and countless tweaks to get it right. Lots of measurements.
Unless you have a perfect room and it already is acoustically ideal, you do your auto-eq then measure then treat and repeat until the room is up to your expectations.
However realistically not everyone goes so far and stop at simply using the audyysey function once and that’s it. It’s up to you and your friend as to how far you want to take this ...
Cheers
Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: Boxerfan88 on April 27, 2019, 10:01
Should do both. Do room treatment first; most of us won't be able to go to the extreme of studio quality treatment; maximize the room treatment possible constrained by budget & WAF. Then do the room calibration / EQ; with a well treated room, the room cal won't need to work so hard to get the sound u want.
Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: sevenz on April 27, 2019, 11:12
I feel the same too that both are impt. Agreed that it's difficult to approach it as an either or qn

One big factor on treatment to consider into the equation is also waf and family comfort. Many of us have living room setups and non dedicated room.

If my waf would allow, I probably would have done some form of treatment. But because of waf, my priority is into calibration and the small ways that would yield better sound but satisfy waf/family acceptance e.g. placement/ angling of speakers, having a DSP, shifting my MLP during HT time.

Maybe another additional question to consider/add here is - how many of us feel treatment is equally impt as calibration but had to forego it due to family/waf.
Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: BadEnglish on April 27, 2019, 11:27
I have a friend once tell me why you still need room treatment when you have room correction software to do the job... ::) ::) ::)
Any advise on which option can provide your system with a better SQ given a choice to choose over another?

I have a friend once tell me praying 6 times a day will help improvement on SQ and PQ of HiFi and HT.

Since then I pray 6 times a day.


(http://media.theindependent.sg/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/21950006_1581564368569444_789401901077184702_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: kennyluck2000 on April 27, 2019, 12:09
I have a friend once tell me praying 6 times a day will help improvement on SQ and PQ of HiFi and HT.

Since then I pray 6 times a day.

(http://media.theindependent.sg/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/21950006_1581564368569444_789401901077184702_o.jpg)

 ;D ;D ;D :-* :-*
cscbb  :o :o :o just wonder if he was inside  :P
Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: kennyluck2000 on April 27, 2019, 12:25
To Ts
My question is: is your “friend” a pro in this line?
As bro Des mentioned, it’s not a throwaway line like that.
Neither are a one time press button solution where you simply do it and viola! Your system is fine.
If you read this forum regularly, it takes EFFORT and countless tweaks to get it right. Lots of measurements.
Unless you have a perfect room and it already is acoustically ideal, you do your auto-eq then measure then treat and repeat until the room is up to your expectations.
However realistically not everyone goes so far and stop at simply using the audyysey function once and that’s it. It’s up to you and your friend as to how far you want to take this ...
Cheers

My "friend" is a "Pro" in this line..  ::)
Ya have to agree with you is not just press one button solution
Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: kelvinsin on April 27, 2019, 13:18
My "friend" is a "Pro" in this line..  ::)
Ya have to agree with you is not just press one button solution
Pro like ppl can offer $150 for audio calibration?
Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: YANG on April 27, 2019, 14:15
There's nothing wrong with charging another for a small fee(where this can often a subjective value upon buyer) between a service provider and a engaging party.

If one is buaya enuff to charge 4figure or even mid~high 3 figure amount to a noob, this service provider better be backed with certification to his expertise, full service including installation and repositioning as well as equipments to show service buyer that his tools are the aide to his profession.
Or else when lobang kenna picha by another person after he learned that this noob had paid the wrong price... The later stage can be very messy...
Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: moonlight on April 27, 2019, 21:32
There's nothing wrong with charging another for a small fee(where this can often a subjective value upon buyer) between a service provider and a engaging party.

If one is buaya enuff to charge 4figure or even mid~high 3 figure amount to a noob, this service provider better be backed with certification to his expertise, full service including installation and repositioning as well as equipments to show service buyer that his tools are the aide to his profession.
Or else when lobang kenna picha by another person after he learned that this noob had paid the wrong price... The later stage can be very messy...

I agree fully with your comment. A small fee (token) is usually meant for his time spending and taxi.

A Sound Engineer could put up $1000 price tag or even more. They will come again if you are not satisfied. We can find the cheaper version from one shop at Adelphi.
They will charge you even higher if you ask them to set up your hi-fi and lay cables. You ask them to come only already kena charge.
My friend engaged an acoustic sales guy who charged him $500 just to measure his room and advice, so he waved these charges when he replaced his acoustic foam.

Nothing is cheap in Singapore... one-time dinner (30 minutes mostly, 3 people) could cost us $300...


Pro like ppl can offer $150 for audio calibration?

Pro impossible charge you $150... you are lucky guy
Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: kelvinsin on April 27, 2019, 22:55
I agree fully with your comment. A small fee (token) is usually meant for his time spending and taxi.

A Sound Engineer could put up $1000 price tag or even more. They will come again if you are not satisfied. We can find the cheaper version from one shop at Adelphi.
They will charge you even higher if you ask them to set up your hi-fi and lay cables. You ask them to come only already kena charge.
My friend engaged an acoustic sales guy who charged him $500 just to measure his room and advice, so he waved these charges when he replaced his acoustic foam.

Nothing is cheap in Singapore... one-time dinner (30 minutes mostly, 3 people) could cost us $300...


Pro impossible charge you $150... you are lucky guy
Good price! Then the pro can further mark up his offer price tag, have a good wealth future, good luck for him.
Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: moonlight on April 28, 2019, 11:59
Good price! Then the pro can further mark up his offer price tag, have a good wealth future, good luck for him.

For me, $150 or $500 is not talking about wealth future bro.
Must be kidding me unless it is $50,000 per month or more. Then yes, he will be a High-net-worth person who has an abundance of money or asset.

I believe your income is more than $500 or even $1500 so how much increment you got, will you have a good wealth future?
Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: desray on April 28, 2019, 12:01
We are digressing...pls stick to the main topic.
Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: moonlight on April 28, 2019, 12:24
We are digressing...pls stick to the main topic.

Oppss... so sorry
Thanks for your reminder...

Back to the topic
I prefer to use built-in room correction software first.

If your room has bad reflection which software couldn't help and you have no much room to reposition your subs or speakers then final help is turned to the room treatment needed.
Room treatments are always good if you have dedicated HT room but not too much.

Nevertheless, I prefer to invest more on my AVR, subs and speakers rather than room treatment (not cheap)
Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: darlynvcs on April 28, 2019, 14:06
Both are equally important but if were to ask me which comes first I will choose room calibration. Why? Reason is simple, most avr in today market have in built room calibration for example Audyssey. It is not the best in the market but still does it job well if you know how to correctly use it. If you want something better and you can go for minidsp embedded with DIRAC live. It does a much better job than Audyssey can offer without burning a hole in your pocket. When you want to sell off it also easier to let go.

Now we come to room treatment, this is very tricky. There is no way you can just buy room treatment material by putting it there hoping it sounds better without much knowledge it just trail n error. You need to hire a professional, best is if he is a audiophile. He doesn't just measure but also uses his ear to listen. This definitely comes with a price. easily a few K's and we have not come to materials to buy. Room Treatment material is not cheap and some looks ugly not WAF. Most and foremost you need a dedicated room unless WAF is totally not a factor and budget is decent enough then by all means.

If both are done up nicely correctly I am sure it will be the ultimate home theater experience you will have.
Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: kennyluck2000 on April 28, 2019, 15:25
I can see a lot is affected by WAF when it come to room treatment. Is is really a serious issue to handle WAF  :-\ :-\ :-\
I have share with a few of my kaki about WAF issue. I have never restrict my wife from doing anything she love.. i give total freedom for her to decide what she want to do...
Take care kids while she is away...  8). Let her know i be always standby her when she need me.
This commitment is for life not a joke..  ;D ;D ;D
She know i have 3 things in my life, family, soccer & HT... 8) 8) 8) no joke is for life.. ;D ;D ;D
It depend on how passionate you are for HT & Hi Fi... to some is just pass time hobby and there is no point going through all those WAF harassment.
My wife once ask me when i gonna stop all these tweaking and changing of equipment.
My answer to her "You rather i spend time & money on these things and not going outside to spend time and money on others woman...I know what i am doing right now and i hope you can let me carry on with my passion. Just like i don't restrict you from doing anything you love..." ;) ;) ;)
Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: BadEnglish on April 28, 2019, 15:32
...
My wife once ask me when i gonna stop all these tweaking and changing of equipment.
My answer to her "You rather i spend time & money on these things and not going outside to spend time and money on others woman...I know what i am doing right now and i hope you can let me carry on with my passion. Just like i don't restrict you from doing anything you love..." ;) ;) ;)

Whaaaaa you seriously read your wife user manual.  Is it a hard copy ?
Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: ralfale on April 28, 2019, 15:59
WAF acoustic is possible in some way. Many needs to be incorporated during renovation. The better looking treatment are pricier and you have to be ready to spend 10k or beyond  for a properly treated hall that looks nice. Having said that, these items are still bulky or protruding by nature and no matter how nice they look, wife still need to accept it.

Thats the way it is. Cant change wife too. Dont be too bothered by it just enjoy the hobby :)
Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: kennyluck2000 on April 28, 2019, 16:14
Whaaaaa you seriously read your wife user manual.  Is it a hard copy ?

Read the manual and get real life experiences, you might fail many times... ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: BadEnglish on April 28, 2019, 16:20
Read the manual and get real life experiences, you might fail many times... ;D ;D ;D

Sure boy.
I read so many times; printed out so many copies;  followed advice of seniors; yet still need tweaking.

I failed so many times. :-[
Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: kennyluck2000 on April 28, 2019, 16:45
Sure boy.
I read so many times; printed out so many copies;  followed advice of seniors; yet still need tweaking.

I failed so many times. :-[

Lol... even if we fails so many times.. but we also learn to enjoy those moment of process and experiences... we always learn to think positively when thing don't get in our way.. ;D ;D ;D
When we are young parent always tell us not to do this and that.. Go to school, teacher teach us this is right that is wrong... Go to work, boss tell you listen to me i am your boss because i pay you salary. Expert give advise this is the best ways to follow... All our life most of us will just follow instructions and commands from others... We are very condition to how others look at us... ??? ??? ???

Does this phrase very important to you when you pursue for your Hi-Fi journey Trying very hard to reproduce the music and sound that creative mixing-artists composed in the studios, at home with limited knowledge and resources.  :D
Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: rayleh on April 28, 2019, 16:47
Hi bro Kenny,

My passion is also family, soccer, HT and a few more.... My wife knows me well so if I spend my time related to these passions, she does not question nor bother so much. I spent the past few weeks tweaking my dual subs with REW, she just simply sat at her recliner using her phone. Although occasionally she encountered some shocks from the sweeping tones, she still didn't display any unhappiness.

My kids have also grown up so they need less attention. I totally agreed that the wives rather that we spend money on cars, HT or whatever than keeping another woman.
Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: rayleh on April 28, 2019, 16:48
Lol... even if we fails so many times.. but we also learn to enjoy those moment of process and experiences... we always learn to think positively when thing don't get in our way.. ;D ;D ;D
When we are young parent always tell us not to do this and that.. Go to school, teacher teach us this is right that is wrong... Go to work, boss tell you listen to me i am your boss because i pay your salary. Expert give advise this is the best ways to follow... All our life most of us will just follow instructions and commands from others... We are very condition to how others look get us... ??? ??? ???

Think this only apply to us Singaporeans.
Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: BadEnglish on April 28, 2019, 16:58
...
Does this phrase very important to you when you pursue for your Hi-Fi journey Trying very hard to reproduce the music and sound that creative mixing-artists composed in the studios, at home with limited knowledge and resources.  :D


Same important as

Int 0x19

 ;D
Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: kennyluck2000 on April 28, 2019, 17:00
Hi bro Kenny,

My passion is also family, soccer, HT and a few more.... My wife knows me well so if I spend my time related to these passions, she does not question nor bother so much. I spent the past few weeks tweaking my dual subs with REW, she just simply sat at her recliner using her phone. Although occasionally she encountered some shocks from the sweeping tones, she still didn't display any unhappiness.

My kids have also grown up so they need less attention. I totally agreed that the wives rather that we spend money on cars, HT or whatever than keeping another woman.

That's very cool from you without any WAF issue... 8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: kennyluck2000 on April 28, 2019, 17:03

Same important as

Int 0x19

 ;D

 ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: rayleh on April 28, 2019, 18:23
That's very cool from you without any WAF issue... 8) 8) 8)

Not w/o WAF issue, just need to know my limit.
Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: ronildoq on April 29, 2019, 08:52
I can see a lot is affected by WAF when it come to room treatment. Is is really a serious issue to handle WAF  :-\ :-\ :-\
I have share with a few of my kaki about WAF issue. I have never restrict my wife from doing anything she love.. i give total freedom for her to decide what she want to do...
Take care kids while she is away...  8). Let her know i be always standby her when she need me.
This commitment is for life not a joke..  ;D ;D ;D
She know i have 3 things in my life, family, soccer & HT... 8) 8) 8) no joke is for life.. ;D ;D ;D
It depend on how passionate you are for HT & Hi Fi... to some is just pass time hobby and there is no point going through all those WAF harassment.
My wife once ask me when i gonna stop all these tweaking and changing of equipment.
My answer to her "You rather i spend time & money on these things and not going outside to spend time and money on others woman...I know what i am doing right now and i hope you can let me carry on with my passion. Just like i don't restrict you from doing anything you love..." ;) ;) ;)

+1, there are many ways or suggestions to handle it, have acoustics panel in ABC or Time tables, for your kids, use that excuse. I was lucky because I was already into this hobby when I met the Mrs . So that’s lucky and that is why she understands. Same like u, it works both ways. U give respect, u earn the respect. It’s always that way between Husband and Wife.

Having said that, I would say both are equally important. You cannot not have a room mode or peaks and nulls <300hz or from 10-100hz, it’s IMPOSSIBLE. Using acoustic panels to solve problems <100hz is not as effective as EQ and can be costly if one decides to take that route. You can still solve problems at lower frequencies with helmhotz, if you have the funds and means.

Not having both, will be a nightmare. Especially if you have it in the hall, like mine. There are too many reflections and sound leakage etc to handle, it’s really challenging. More often than not, the room will dominate . You are now actually listening to your “room” and no longer your speakers.

After my Long journey calibrating subs, REW, placement etc, I realised that sometimes, it’s not really ideal to just place the acoustic panels. Some areas will not require it. You really need to measure and know exactly where and how to place them. Type of material and wether absorption or diffusion works better.I wouldn’t say it’s luck, it’s experience. You Place one panel at X location, measure and listen. Rinse and repeat , place and measure and listen. After some time, you will have the experience

The first and foremost place above all, is the back of the MLP, this is the area that does serious damage to the listening experience, especially for HT, because all those speakers are angled towards MLP and a lot of this energy is reflected off back of MLP , this reflected energy messes things up in the time domain, and muddies the frequency

It’s a Long topic, but conclusion will be to have EQ, especially important for subwoofers. And acoustics for problems above Schroeder frequency. And careful  placement of the acoustic panels using a combination of absorption and diffusion  to solve the problems in that particular room.

I think u have had some experience after I demonstrated to u and other members in the past using REW how you solve the bass issues using the psi active bass trap. It’s the same methodology . You listen, place it at problematic area, turn on psi and listen again. It’s not really about luck, it’s a calculated approach

Good luck bro in your journey. It’s good that you are humble and always constantly trying to improve your set up! Great job ! You can always apps me if you want to share your experience, always welcome
Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: kennyluck2000 on April 29, 2019, 14:05
+1, there are many ways or suggestions to handle it, have acoustics panel in ABC or Time tables, for your kids, use that excuse. I was lucky because I was already into this hobby when I met the Mrs . So that’s lucky and that is why she understands. Same like u, it works both ways. U give respect, u earn the respect. It’s always that way between Husband and Wife.

Having said that, I would say both are equally important. You cannot not have a room mode or peaks and nulls <300hz or from 10-100hz, it’s IMPOSSIBLE. Using acoustic panels to solve problems <100hz is not as effective as EQ and can be costly if one decides to take that route. You can still solve problems at lower frequencies with helmhotz, if you have the funds and means.

Not having both, will be a nightmare. Especially if you have it in the hall, like mine. There are too many reflections and sound leakage etc to handle, it’s really challenging. More often than not, the room will dominate . You are now actually listening to your “room” and no longer your speakers.

After my Long journey calibrating subs, REW, placement etc, I realised that sometimes, it’s not really ideal to just place the acoustic panels. Some areas will not require it. You really need to measure and know exactly where and how to place them. Type of material and wether absorption or diffusion works better.I wouldn’t say it’s luck, it’s experience. You Place one panel at X location, measure and listen. Rinse and repeat , place and measure and listen. After some time, you will have the experience

The first and foremost place above all, is the back of the MLP, this is the area that does serious damage to the listening experience, especially for HT, because all those speakers are angled towards MLP and a lot of this energy is reflected off back of MLP , this reflected energy messes things up in the time domain, and muddies the frequency

It’s a Long topic, but conclusion will be to have EQ, especially important for subwoofers. And acoustics for problems above Schroeder frequency. And careful  placement of the acoustic panels using a combination of absorption and diffusion  to solve the problems in that particular room.

I think u have had some experience after I demonstrated to u and other members in the past using REW how you solve the bass issues using the psi active bass trap. It’s the same methodology . You listen, place it at problematic area, turn on psi and listen again. It’s not really about luck, it’s a calculated approach

Good luck bro in your journey. It’s good that you are humble and always constantly trying to improve your set up! Great job ! You can always apps me if you want to share your experience, always welcome

Hi Bryan is good to see you back to share your HT experiences and that will definitely benefit to those who are new to room treatment or those who have been hesitate of getting some acoustic panel for their room. We are here to share something we know.. it might be wrong or at some point, some may not agree to what we have experiences. But that willing to share can actually help us to explore more new experiences that we never thought of...always thinks positively and i can say i am not always right or wrong.

I have been a strong believer on room treatment for a very long time and till today i still believe room treatment will help you achieve better listening experience with or without room correction. With additional room EQ it can help enhance further.
Your room is definitely a good place for demo with proper room treatment material and still look quiet decent... no the best looking room..but still cool.. 8)

My room even though look awful with all treatment material but without any room EQ will still sound much much better when compare to room without any room treatment... :)
But having say that room treatment does not mean you need to buy off-self complete product which will cost you a fortune. We can always choose to go diy route which will cost very much lesser but need your time to built and dirty your hand... 8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: ronildoq on April 29, 2019, 18:13
Yea, best to try yourself. Only u will know, if it works, very good. Point taken and learnt something new. If it doesn’t, it’s ok. Move on, doesn’t work for u. Try other means or other approach.

That rice theory was a shocker for me too. Initially I was like, wait a second, rice sack on subwoofer cabinet ? Are u sure ? How is that gonna help? But after Pete tried out and said it worked, I thought I should try it out. And it was pointed out by Wechnivag  Then I googled and found that there is some credible theory behind it. By NASA!   :o

And it really worked wonders on my stacked subwoofer, the TOP subwoofer sits firm , less vibration on the cabinets and I don’t get the false ceiling rattling sound, what a tweak !

Similar like u, I’m also constantly learning .... it’s always good to exchange ideas...

Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: wechnivag on April 29, 2019, 20:58




That rice theory was a shocker for me too. Initially I was like, wait a second, rice sack on subwoofer cabinet ? Are u sure ? How is that gonna help? But after Pete tried out and said it worked, I thought I should try it out. And it was pointed out by Wechnivag  Then I googled and found that there is some credible theory behind it. By NASA!   :o

And it really worked wonders on my stacked subwoofer, the TOP subwoofer sits firm , less vibration on the cabinets and I don’t get the false ceiling rattling sound, what a tweak !


I learned it from sifu Diyer Straits. He used steel shots in his speaker stands. Not mass loading, but loose in the top platform which is built hollow, exactly like PID. Sharing and passing on the knowledge


Sent from my X9009 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: Hillviewer on May 01, 2019, 11:06
Can use sand instead of rice?
Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: wechnivag on May 01, 2019, 14:58
Can use sand instead of rice?
From my understanding, if it's loose dry sand it's good. Depending on the sand it may pack and compact solid over time due to vibration, so then you will lose the vibration energy dissipation , becomes pure solid mass loading only.

Sent from my X9009 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: ronildoq on May 01, 2019, 21:32
Can use sand instead of rice?

Some of them actually use stainless steel sand for sandblasting in a similar capacity, I went with steel shots, 25kg. Works nicely. So far so good, effective on the stacked subs. If I don’t stack the subs, probably won’t need this
Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: joamonte on May 03, 2019, 13:26
WAF of room acoustic treatment totally wasn’t a problem at all if one have the Budget , and determination to do it, after all, most of the money spend on the acoustic treatment tool are actually to make it LOOK nicer rather than on sound performance......... unfortunately not many people willing to spend as much as their system total cost on room acoustic , I know some hi end audiophile in Singapore willing to it , but not many.
Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: stvc on May 03, 2019, 14:10
WAF of room acoustic treatment totally wasn’t a problem at all if one have the Budget

That not true, they have different vision. Maybe not all but at least my :'(. But then again you are right, it won't be problem if you rich enough to afford a dedicated room. ;D
Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: joamonte on May 03, 2019, 14:12
That not true, they have different vision. Maybe not all but at least my :'(. But then again you are right, it won't be problem if you rich enough to afford a dedicated room. ;D

It is all about $$$$$$$$$ and how determine are you to get good sound from your system, too bad not many ppls really realise how much impact the room contribute to the sound of their audio system...
Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: stvc on May 03, 2019, 14:22
I think most people know, i would say the room could take 50% of the sound quality? But this just a hobby, not a must, so different people have different justification. Just like a car, Some people willing to pay for luxury car some rather to take public transport.

For myself, there is no way to add any panel to my wall even with proper ID design as i have my system at living room, input from my wife, "it's so ugly". Unless i have a spare room which she will allow me to do what ever i want, unfortunately i cannot afford. :'(
Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: darlynvcs on May 03, 2019, 16:06
Both are right in your own way.... some will very much like to do treatment but just boh lui....
some have deeper pocket but can't stand panel or foam sticking out. Just a matter of preference. 
Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: stvc on May 03, 2019, 17:12
Precisely.
Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: joamonte on May 03, 2019, 20:09
I think most people know, i would say the room could take 50% of the sound quality? But this just a hobby, not a must, so different people have different justification. Just like a car, Some people willing to pay for luxury car some rather to take public transport.

For myself, there is no way to add any panel to my wall even with proper ID design as i have my system at living room, input from my wife, "it's so ugly". Unless i have a spare room which she will allow me to do what ever i want, unfortunately i cannot afford. :'(

It will not be a problem if you have enough budget to design and renovated the room from scratch ..... there are acoustic treatment method that Do not need to use or see the panel , and it will well hidden into the living room deco , too bad those are “too expensive” to many people, and so they will say, room acoustic treatment have Low WAF....
Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: joamonte on May 03, 2019, 20:29
One funny thing about most audiophile or HT fan is, when they spend money they want to be able to see , touch and show others where their money gone —— a flagship AVR, a huge subwoofer, a big TV....etc, people wouldn’t mind to have a 18” subwoofer in their living room and wouldn’t talk about WAF,  but when talk about acoustic treatment, on one hand they will say panel is ugly, on the other hand if the treatment is invisible they will feel uncomfortable because nobody know they spend so much on acoustic treatment🤣

Just some personal thought , after doing more than hundred room acoustic project , I realise I alway have to design acoustic base on very tight budget..... make the room sound right is easy, but make the treatment look presentable within Budget   is the real challenge behind....and that is really tiring , so I do not do room acoustic project that often nowadays.
Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: wechnivag on May 04, 2019, 11:16
One funny thing about most audiophile or HT fan is, when they spend money they want to be able to see , touch and show others where their money gone —— a flagship AVR, a huge subwoofer, a big TV....etc, people wouldn’t mind to have a 18” subwoofer in their living room and wouldn’t talk about WAF,  but when talk about acoustic treatment, on one hand they will say panel is ugly, on the other hand if the treatment is invisible they will feel uncomfortable because nobody know they spend so much on acoustic treatment🤣

Just some personal thought , after doing more than hundred room acoustic project , I realise I alway have to design acoustic base on very tight budget..... make the room sound right is easy, but make the treatment look presentable within Budget   is the real challenge behind....and that is really tiring , so I do not do room acoustic project that often nowadays.
Hi Sifu, thanks for sharing your experience. Human psychology is really unique. Most people will not hesitate to buy a $300 power cord, even in relatively budget setups...

But mention a $300 60x120 bass trap....

Simple panel can look quite good too...



(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190504/003077303f994d9d0774888946c75e89.jpg)

Sent from my X9009 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: stvc on May 04, 2019, 11:42

It will not be a problem if you have enough budget to design and renovated the room from scratch ..... there are acoustic treatment method that Do not need to use or see the panel , and it will well hidden into the living room deco , too bad those are “too expensive” to many people, and so they will say, room acoustic treatment have Low WAF....

It’s very subjective thing, not everyone have that kind of budget ( I not sure what the budget range you refer to), For some people like me, I can pay for the room treatment but wife not agree, but there is always a way pay for the equipment without  stoppage from wife but no way in renovation :).
Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: stvc on May 04, 2019, 11:44
Hi Sifu, thanks for sharing your experience. Human psychology is really unique. Most people will not hesitate to buy a $300 power cord, even in relatively budget setups...

But mention a $300 60x120 bass trap....

Simple panel can look quite good too...



(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190504/003077303f994d9d0774888946c75e89.jpg)

Sent from my X9009 using Tapatalk

I shown this to my wife before, same word, “ugly”, well.. different people different taste. Just like food, some people like Macdonald some just hate it.
Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: wechnivag on May 04, 2019, 12:15
I shown this to my wife before, same word, “ugly”, well.. different people different taste. Just like food, some people like Macdonald some just hate it.


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Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: sevenz on May 04, 2019, 12:53

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190504/003077303f994d9d0774888946c75e89.jpg)

I think this will pass my waf format rear wall.

Does anyone know which vendor does this locally? :)
Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: desray on May 04, 2019, 13:02
I think this will pass my waf format rear wall.

Does anyone know which vendor does this locally? :)

I thought you are going back to basics...why still want to spend so much money for treatment?
Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: sevenz on May 05, 2019, 17:13
I thought you are going back to basics...why still want to spend so much money for treatment?

I'll still be enjoying HT la keke... Just lesser time.  :)

And based on bros advice here, I believe treating the rear wall can still optimise whatever setup I have, and help in improving the sound for the immediate term and longer term. :)

Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: joamonte on May 06, 2019, 22:33


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I expected that type of answer...... now you can see what I am talking about.😬
Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: joamonte on May 06, 2019, 22:41
I think this will pass my waf format rear wall.

Does anyone know which vendor does this locally? :)

This absorbing panel is only as effective at 2-3” eggcrate foam which cost less than $80 , but the retail price is a few hundred dollars, so this proven that what I said earlier about most of the money spend on the acoustic treatment product are on the look( and yet there are some bro will still think the panel look ugly 😬)
Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: desray on July 25, 2019, 07:46
Old but good discussion on room treatment vs room calibration.


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Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: kaydee6 on July 25, 2019, 07:48
Not that old la.
Title: Re: Given the priority to choose between room treatment and Room calibration
Post by: desray on July 25, 2019, 08:58
Not that old la.

Haha...thanks to my Tapatalk app which literally show this thread to be dated back to 2 years ago :P Yeah...now looking at it on a normal desktop version...it is definitely not that old. LoL.