XtremePlace Forum

AV Galaxy => Planet Bass => Topic started by: WuffRuff on December 11, 2018, 04:32

Title: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: WuffRuff on December 11, 2018, 04:32
When is 2 woofers necessary and when is 1 woofer more suitable?
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: Jag on December 11, 2018, 06:52
2 woofers is necessary if you are serious about getting the most of your HT investments.

1 sub if you subscribe to the belief of “got some bass, can already.”

Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: Bbos37 on December 11, 2018, 09:53
You have the answer already from the question
2 woofer Necessary
1 woofer suitable


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Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: darlynvcs on December 11, 2018, 10:03
Once i go 2 woofer, i nvr turn back.
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: YANG on December 11, 2018, 10:35
1 for front.
1 for back.

If only the front hv impact thumps and drums... the back and surround leh?  ;D
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: WuffRuff on December 11, 2018, 14:24
1 for front.
1 for back.

If only the front hv impact thumps and drums... the back and surround leh?  ;D

Woofer/ low frequencies are non-directional.
This is what dolby website says.

I was thinking necessary or suitable for 1 or 2 depends on the room size.
Need to be very careful of too much low frequencies in a small room.... that's how you get bass boom and all the sounds become muddy.
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: YANG on December 11, 2018, 14:49
Yes... Low frequencies can be... non directional.......until recently proven otherwise.
The sub for the back or surround channel is just to handle whatever lows encoded in these channels where the speakers used cannot handle well... act as supporting role or as handling role.
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: sevenz on December 11, 2018, 23:20
Woofer/ low frequencies are non-directional.
This is what dolby website says.

I was thinking necessary or suitable for 1 or 2 depends on the room size.
Need to be very careful of too much low frequencies in a small room.... that's how you get bass boom and all the sounds become muddy.

Agree with Jag and other bros here on having 2 subs! :)

I used to be in 1 sub setup for some time. Reknown sub brand. Though bass was enough, but it just lacked something. One problem I experienced was easy to localise the bass in certain scenes even with proper calibration. And the body tactile was not ideal. Plus I had wide band bass dips, so certain scenes Im missing certain bass Freq effect.

Adding a 2nd sub in a different location in my room with proper placement and bass calibration made a day and night difference.

First it smooth out the Freq and fill up bass dips. So I get most of the full spectrum of the intended bass and not have missing big pockets of bass due to major dips.

Secondly, the 2nd sub gives me a "3D effect inmersion of bass" where bass just moves like surround sound in the listening area and the bass hard to localise.  1 sub can't achieve this no matter how much I calibrate it .

Next, thru an additional sub, I am able to play with near field placement to get the tactile body effect (referring to sharp chest thump n layered low rumble) I need on my body, without having localisation issues

Without good placement and calibration, 2 subs could sound worse, which u pointed up muddy. IMO, muddy bass usually is not due to having dual subs. But likely due to the lack of good calibration and/or placement, and also the vibrating factors in the room.

I feel that u will benefit from dual subs regardless of room size, with proper placement and calibration.

And I suggest dual identical subs for easier calibration n integration

Bass is one of the most impt elements in HT. Place them well, calibrate it to your best u can and it will bring u a very big smile in your HT!

Hope this helps! ;)
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: whitesox on December 12, 2018, 08:47
+1 ... same experienced with sevenz

Muddy bass indicated that ur rooms response has deep dips... no 3D bass layers at all

Boomy bass (echoing) indicated that you have standing bass (peaks)

Watch movie... 'the nun' ... a lot of low freq deep bass and good active surr effects.
Good to test ur subs.

 :)
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: ronildoq on December 12, 2018, 13:00
2 woofers is necessary if you are serious about getting the most of your HT investments.

1 sub if you subscribe to the belief of “got some bass, can already.”

Lol got some bass can oredi la... u forgot the lah ! Hahahaha

Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: econav on December 12, 2018, 15:54
One is a must.
Two for balance.
Three I know you going to do something...
Four I don't know what I am doing..... till I do it.
If we talk of low freq it cover till 200Hz or something like that for most of the AVR....
When we talk of subsonic is down from say 50hz to I don't know how low most avr can goes....
when we can detect where the Bass come from or ppl refer to directional , it have much to do with room/placement/ corner loading/gain , as such can tell where the bass freq come from not just low or mid low freq .Boomy is a term refer to that sound Q of the sub not refer to directional .
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: YANG on December 12, 2018, 16:58
...Three I know you going to do something...
Spoiler: show
http://www.youtube.com/v/WmC_s-FVxDQ&fs=1
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: WuffRuff on December 18, 2018, 17:56
So 2 woofers it is.
Now what about placement?
1 front and 1 back or 2 front left and right?
Is it ok to have things in front of the subs?
I see some people have couch in front of the subs etc.
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: sevenz on December 19, 2018, 23:25
So 2 woofers it is.
Now what about placement?
1 front and 1 back or 2 front left and right? IMO, I would recommend the former. How much flexibility in placement do you have? ie. can u place the subs anywhere and are there aesthetic concerns?

Is it ok to have things in front of the subs? preferably, not. A clear path to the MLP is preferred.

I see some people have couch in front of the subs etc. do you mean, placing subs behind their couch?
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: WuffRuff on December 31, 2018, 00:14
Now comes a twist on the question.
1 big sub or 2 smaller subs?
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: sevenz on December 31, 2018, 02:00
Now comes a twist on the question.
1 big sub or 2 smaller subs?

Not a straightforward answer.  :)
 
Why I say that is because, if your intended bigger sub is a 15" and your 2 intended smaller subs mean many size lower (e.g. 8" size) instead of one size lower (like 12" size), 2x 8" subs might not be better than 1x good 15" sub. One reason is the physical limitation of small drivers like 8" to produce low bass n rumble. So no matter how many 8" subs u add to your setup, if it can't produce any useful output for lowbass, it just can't produce any. So I would assume u are talking about 1 size lower here :) E.g. 1x15" compared to 2x 12". If that's the case, in most cases, I would go for 2x 12" as it would smoothen the bass across freq and give the benefits that was mentioned earlier

But this is also assuming that the quality n distortion of the 2 smaller subs is "on par" with the bigger sub. Ie. 2x 12" rythmik F12 VS 1x 15" rythmik F15. If it's 1x 15" rythmik F15 VS 2x 12" subs from mass market brands not renowned for subs (with high distortion), having 2 subs might not give u better bass quality though the room FR might look better.

And lastly, the calibration to integrate 2 subs is a BIG factor. Multiple subs setup which are not placed, calibrated and integrated the right way, will sound way worse than 1 sub placed and calibrated well.

It would help greatly to indicate the sub models and size u are looking at here. And your room size. So that we can help advise better.
Title: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: desray on December 31, 2018, 06:20
Now comes a twist on the question.
1 big sub or 2 smaller subs?

Short answer. Whenever possible (so long as space is not a constraint), go for dual subwoofer implementation and in this case, 2 smaller “identical brand” subwoofers, each at a different location preferably symmetrically positioned to help smoothen and achieve a more uniform bass response throughout the listening area. Loudness of the subwoofers will be the combined sum of the 2 subwoofers usually in the range of 2 - 3db gain. But the key benefits of going dual subwoofer are about the reasons that I have just mentioned.

Going anything beyond 2 like 3 or 4 subwoofers is always welcome but it will depend on your room size and layout. Law of diminishing returns sets in and the benefits can become subtle. But if space is never the issue. Placing 4, NOT 3 will be the preferred choice here. Threes a crowd.


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Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: WuffRuff on December 31, 2018, 07:16


"do you mean, placing subs behind their couch?"

Yup.
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: cleadett on December 31, 2018, 17:45
"do you mean, placing subs behind their couch?"

Yup.

You can try it... not happy then re-position.. placed it in-front
 ;)
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: sevenz on December 31, 2018, 23:15
"do you mean, placing subs behind their couch?"

Yup.

That's a common practice to get tactile at a nearfield placement. Nothing wrong.

As what cleadett said, try out the various placements and feel (and measure) for yourself how the bass feels differently. Its a enjoyable process to discover how each tweak affects your bass :)
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: wcseow on January 18, 2019, 23:11
Let me know if I am doing something inappropriate as a bit apprehensive about putting up a new thread on something similar.

I am buying a new set of FLC and sub as will be redeploying my current Living Room Missions to my solo den. Below is a pic of the current setup, please bear with the quality as I did a panaromic shoot.

Listening area size is 3.6m x 2.4m, ceiling is 3m

My current sub is Mission MS 150, 8" which m thinking to move it to my solo den.

1. Thinking of buying 2 sub (8" or 10") or 1 sub (10" or 12").

2. If buying 2 sub, the second sub will probably have to be behind the sofa . Cable will probably follow the  current trunking which means will be about 12m long. Any issue with this length?

3. I understand the point on bass specialist brands. But I guess one can gather from my purchases, I tend to go for "budget?" like Missions Q Acoustics, Elac etc...:)

Thanks in advance

(https://i.postimg.cc/Gm23PyB4/rsz-20190118-221841.jpg)
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: rayleh on January 19, 2019, 09:00
I will go for 2 smaller subs if possible. It really makes a difference.
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: wcseow on January 19, 2019, 09:17
I will go for 2 smaller subs if possible. It really makes a difference.

Will 2x8" be a good start?
and is a 12m cable an issue?

Have not really heard a 2 sub setup, wondering will  my neighbours annoyed. :)
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: Jag on January 19, 2019, 13:26
Turn down the volume of both subs then.
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: rayleh on January 19, 2019, 13:36
You will definitely love the 2 subs set up. If possible try to go for the biggest subs you can afford and will fit into your space. Worry if they are too loud, you can always turn down the gain like what Jag mentioned.
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: rayleh on January 19, 2019, 17:00
https://youtu.be/OM_F_8oyJ6k

Watch the video from Subwoofer 101
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: desray on January 19, 2019, 22:07
Will 2x8" be a good start?
and is a 12m cable an issue?

Have not really heard a 2 sub setup, wondering will  my neighbours annoyed. :)

Don't worry, if done right...it is not gonna sound as loud as you think. Calibration by your AVR will take care of it.
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: wcseow on January 19, 2019, 22:19
I guess my options for the 2 subs will be

1. Place each between the fronts and centre. That will mean the subs will be nearer to MLP then the fronts, sort of protruding out. They will only be slightly more than 1m apart, edge to edge. Shorter cable.

2. One front and the other behind the sofa. Long sub cable as it will need to go up the ceiling and fish, like my surrounds. Est 12m long.

I am thinking to start with (1) and see how it sounds. Easy to setup too. But is the placement well have a low chance of improvement?

Thanks
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: Jag on January 19, 2019, 22:21
Try both and see which  works better for you.
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: synthesis on January 19, 2019, 22:27
Will 2x8" be a good start?

I would start with good 10" that can go down to ~20hz. What are your candidates?
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: wcseow on January 19, 2019, 22:42

Try both and see which  works better for you.

Lol..I guess in order to potentially avoid the high price of a 12m sub cable, will start with option 1.

Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: wcseow on January 19, 2019, 22:50

I would start with good 10" that can go down to ~20hz. What are your candidates?

mmmm..don't think those "budget" type I mention like Elac, Mission goes down that low.   

Have not really look at others as i understand those bass focus brands will probably be out of my budget unless I go preown...lol
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: synthesis on January 19, 2019, 23:27
Then probably better to have 1 proper one than 2 with less performance.
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: rayleh on January 20, 2019, 00:05
You should get a proper a sub and a used one may be within the budget. I used to have those subs like Yamaha until I bought my first SVS, The diff is day and night. Dual subs are the best upgrade, better than when I installed my front height speakers. Subs are really important for movies. I think the promo for SW12 is really value for money now.
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: wcseow on January 20, 2019, 02:15
Thanks.

Proper sub meaning SVS, Starke ?

I think those do not have 10" models here. Where can I get SVS. KEC?
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: rayleh on January 20, 2019, 07:40
There are other brands too like JL Audio, Rythmik etc.

Yes, Kec carries SVS. PB10 is using a 10” woofer.
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: synthesis on January 20, 2019, 09:04
Not sure about your budget but I may be able to build you a proper sub if you are open to this option....  :D
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: wcseow on January 20, 2019, 10:46
There are other brands too like JL Audio, Rythmik etc.

Yes, Kec carries SVS. PB10 is using a 10” woofer.

PB1000?..their website states no stock.

Am looking at the specs, SW12 smaller than PB1000....itchy..lol
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: wcseow on January 20, 2019, 10:50
Not sure about your budget but I may be able to build you a proper sub if you are open to this option....  :D

I started with Elac 10s then 10eq then 2x10eq  and now.......lol
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: kelvinsin on January 20, 2019, 20:50
There are other brands too like JL Audio, Rythmik etc.

Yes, Kec carries SVS. PB10 is using a 10” woofer.

PB10 is 2005 model, are you sure u talking about PB10?
If PB1000 its using 12" driver.
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: rayleh on January 20, 2019, 22:01
My bad, it is PB1000. It is a 10” woofer. SB1000 is 12”.
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: wcseow on February 05, 2019, 00:15
Swop in a SW12 last week and the difference is great. Not really technical into it but certainly shiok with the bass and rumble.

Setting up the second SW2 soon, behind the couch. Eager to sense the improvements.

I cant explain this but somehow I feel with the SW12 in, the LCRs seems "inadequate". Looks like  have to hasten my picks for the speakers. Lol
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: rayleh on February 05, 2019, 08:47
What LCR are you using? Can try to adjust the crossover?
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: wcseow on February 05, 2019, 09:27
What LCR are you using? Can try to adjust the crossover?

Missions LX4 and LXC
I ran AccuEq which sets the crossover at exactly the lowest ratings of the Missions. 40 & 80.

Moved it up to 60 and 100.😀
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: whitesox on February 05, 2019, 12:22
Missions LX4 and LXC
I ran AccuEq which sets the crossover at exactly the lowest ratings of the Missions. 40 & 80.

Moved it up to 60 and 100.😀

What can you hear between previous and current Xover value settings?

 :)
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: wcseow on February 05, 2019, 12:57
What can you hear between previous and current Xover value settings?

 :)

The AccuEq made the same settings with the old Mission 8" and the SW12, thus I made the same adjustment.

Somehow, the LCR sounds make subdue, maybe due to presence of lower bass?..
However, sound wise is still.better.overall and.more immersive when watching movies.
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: whitesox on February 05, 2019, 20:35
Will 2x8" be a good start?
and is a 12m cable an issue?

Have not really heard a 2 sub setup, wondering will  my neighbours annoyed. :)

No worry... you can use gain knob to control the loudness of your subw.

I know few brothers even using 4 subs (15" and 18" woofer) ....  I encourage you to use 12"sub for your living room.
start with one first ... buy good brand.. SVS SB2000 is small build and compact suitable for HDB.
Get 2nd hand subs if possible.. help you to save money for the 2nd subws later,

Watching a movie without boom boom, will be no siok lar...

Make friend and visit few brothers here.... chat with them to gain knowledge and listen what type of subw you like.

 ;D
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: wcseow on February 05, 2019, 20:42

I know few brothers even using 4 subs (15" and 18" woofer) ....  I encourage you to use 12"sub for your living room.
start with one first ... buy good brand.. SVS SB2000 is small build and compact suitable for HDB.
Get 2nd hand subs if possible.. help you to save money for the 2nd subws later,

Watching a movie without boom boom, will be no siok lar...


 ;D

Yep. Thus having units of Starle SW12 now. One already connected and enjoying it. Will be setting up the 2nd one thess 2 days I hope.
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: rayleh on February 05, 2019, 20:43
He already has a SW12 so I suggest you get the similar model for easy integration. As mentioned, you can adjust the gain on the subs. 2 subs setup is the way to go if space and budget permit.
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: wcseow on February 05, 2019, 20:49
Sorry if I could not explain it well.

Having a Mission 5.1 setup with Mission MS150 as the sub. Ceiling are Gallo Micro.

Have taken out the MS150 and replace it with the Starke SW12. Like it.
I have a 2nd SW12. As it will be placed behind the couch, will need more time to connect it up but should be done these 2 days
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: whitesox on February 05, 2019, 22:04
He already has a SW12 so I suggest you get the similar model for easy integration. As mentioned, you can adjust the gain on the subs. 2 subs setup is the way to go if space and budget permit.

Yes... +1
I also prefer to use the same brand and driver (same dsp, same speed, some wattage and same tonal).
but other brothers may not like this idea... so different people different opinions.

Congrats to him for his new toy.

:)
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: rayleh on February 05, 2019, 22:17
Not sure if Accueq will eq multiple subs so a separate DSP may be required. MultiXT eq 2 subs as 1 so my 2 subs are of equidistant. Yours will be of different distance and must make sure that they are correct phasing too.
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: wcseow on February 06, 2019, 16:19
Setup the 2nd SW12 behind my sofa
 Did not run any AccuEQ as visitors around., just do some volume adjustment. Sub cable lying on floor.

In a nutshell, feels better. Switch on/off and all definitely feels the difference.

Thinking of getting the SVS Soundpath wireless audio adaptor thingy to avoid laying long sun cable.

Anyone has experience on that?

Thanks
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: rayleh on February 06, 2019, 19:34
If you want to run your sub wirelessly then better run both wirelessly as there will be delay via wireless setup.
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: wcseow on February 06, 2019, 20:04
If you want to run your sub wirelessly then better run both wirelessly as there will be delay via wireless setup.

Will be getting a new AVR as moving my living room gear to my den.

Planning to get the Marantz6012/6013 or Yamaha A2080. I believe MultiXT 32 will have Sub EQ which I hope will help take care of the wireless delay, safe to assume that?

As for YPAO, cant seem to get any info on that. Lol
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: rayleh on February 06, 2019, 20:53
My opinion is not to run one sub via cable and another sub via wireless. Either both wireless or both via cable. Multi XT32 will eq 2 subs separately so need not to be in equidistant as your setup will have a sub in front and a sub on the opposite side.
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: wcseow on February 07, 2019, 10:09
A small question on the placement of the 2nd SW12 behind the sofas. As there is not space between the back wall and the sub, the sub will be both close to the wall and the sofa.

Is it better to start off by having the sub front facing the sofa which will be very near or sub front at a right angle to the wall n sofa?
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: rayleh on February 08, 2019, 16:19
Never have a sub near my sofas so I cannot advise you. Try out with different directions and see if you like it.
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: whitesox on February 08, 2019, 21:28
Never have a sub near my sofas so I cannot advise you. Try out with different directions and see if you like it.

U must try bro... different feeling.
Two front subs
One behind sofa

Oh... damn siookkk nirvana bro..
Just watch out for phase... make sure all of them must be in-phase

 :)
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: rayleh on February 08, 2019, 22:11
Love too. I had a hard time convincing my the other half for dual subs, also no space for a sub behind my sofas. Happy now with dual subs. Watched The Nun the other night and the bass indeed bring chill down my spine.
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: deadrick on May 01, 2019, 00:27
U must try bro... different feeling.
Two front subs
One behind sofa

Oh... damn siookkk nirvana bro..
Just watch out for phase... make sure all of them must be in-phase

 :)
hello, im just curious, the one sub infront, one sub opposite side of the room, i roughly understand the phase will be 180 opposite for each sub.
but what about both sub in front? how to set the phase?

im a 1 sub user, moving HT to living room from bedroom, may have chance to do dual sub now. lol.
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: desray on May 01, 2019, 07:32
hello, im just curious, the one sub infront, one sub opposite side of the room, i roughly understand the phase will be 180 opposite for each sub.
but what about both sub in front? how to set the phase?


im a 1 sub user, moving HT to living room from bedroom, may have chance to do dual sub now. lol.

Set it to “0”.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: ronildoq on May 01, 2019, 11:07
hello, im just curious, the one sub infront, one sub opposite side of the room, i roughly understand the phase will be 180 opposite for each sub.
but what about both sub in front? how to set the phase?

im a 1 sub user, moving HT to living room from bedroom, may have chance to do dual sub now. lol.

Highly recommended to go dual to smoothen the response and for better headroom

Having Both subs in front or one front and back may not necessarily mean it will be 180 degrees out of phase. I would first check the polarity on both subs first, to Ensure they match, before adjusting for phase. If only having one subwoofer, then best leave it at 0.

What subwoofer are u using now ?
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: rayleh on May 02, 2019, 14:29
I agree with Ron. Multiple subs is a must if the room permits.
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: wizardofoz on May 02, 2019, 15:32
I agree with Ron. Multiple subs is a must if the room permits.
and if SWMBO permits
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: YANG on May 06, 2019, 15:15
If one sub priced @ 1.2k cannot get CFO approval...
Go for 2 subs priced @ 600each. Still cannot get 2 subs approval?
Get... 4 subs @ 300each!
https://www.sweelee.com.sg/products/m-audio-av32-1-2-1-channel-powered-speaker-system
(https://d1aeri3ty3izns.cloudfront.net/media/17/177242/1200/preview.jpg)
 The satellite speakers can still used for overhead/surround channels, or... if not needed can flip in carousell!
Eventually it's just numbers and figures to CFO @ Home!
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: deadrick on May 16, 2019, 08:33
Highly recommended to go dual to smoothen the response and for better headroom

Having Both subs in front or one front and back may not necessarily mean it will be 180 degrees out of phase. I would first check the polarity on both subs first, to Ensure they match, before adjusting for phase. If only having one subwoofer, then best leave it at 0.

What subwoofer are u using now ?

How do you test phase of the sub?
Using rythmik lv12. I scared my living room is too big for this sub, but recent testing, it actually sound better in living room then my small bedroom.. Not sure why.. But haven't put it in place just put the sub outside the bedroom facing living room.

Problem with living room is too many things can start shaking, I'm surprised this lv12 can cause vibration in my cabinet..
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: rayleh on May 16, 2019, 11:24
How many subs do you have? Where did you place them with reference to your main listening position?
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: villez on May 16, 2019, 11:39
will a 2.5m by 2.5m room be too small for 2 subs?
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: rayleh on May 16, 2019, 13:09
Multiple subs is always better regardless of the room size.
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: ronildoq on May 17, 2019, 09:02
How do you test phase of the sub?
Using rythmik lv12. I scared my living room is too big for this sub, but recent testing, it actually sound better in living room then my small bedroom.. Not sure why.. But haven't put it in place just put the sub outside the bedroom facing living room.

Problem with living room is too many things can start shaking, I'm surprised this lv12 can cause vibration in my cabinet..

When cabinets start vibrating, it’s not an indication of how good a sub is, actually it’s just that one particular area is prone to resonance at certain frequencies, Low frequency energies accumulating at that location  or the cabinets not properly secured , it can lead to serious rattling sound that can be detrimental to the listening experience , you would want to avoid that.

Sometimes, simply moving the subs to another location could solve it, because that resonant frequency now shifts elsewhere. But could lead to other problems in another location. Some use blutack, some just change out the cabinet. That’s the risk with living room environment, u need to identify the problems in the room and try and solve it so it helps with your overall listening experience , not an easy task

As for phase matching subs, I actually prefer to time align subs, I find that when u do that, phase will sort itself out , not forgetting to Ensure they are polarity matched

Do u have rew and umik ? What subs are u using ?
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: rayleh on May 17, 2019, 15:50
He is using Rythmik LV12. Of course, the best is he has REW and UMIK but it is another steep learning curve to clasp.
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: deadrick on May 19, 2019, 13:21
Yes, the reason the cabinets were virbating was because i just place it outside my bedroom, its not where it will be in living room set up. just a test to see if lv12 is enough for living room.

i just done setting up a 2.1 in the living room, havent do up the surround or top speakers, centre.
already enjoying the 2.1.

Plus all my concern of my sub not able to perform in the living room is no longer valid.
It can still perform!!! i didnt even use my dspeaker to tame any peak, just straight to AVR and its good enough.
i place it around 25% to the right front wall, left side on my right speakers.

its really much much much better than having it in my small bedroom. like the lows are lower and first time in my set up i felt the sofa vibrating .. never happen in bedroom set up. im really content with the low and stopped thinking of going 15" sub for now.... lol

I guess the difference with bedroom and living room setup is the MLP.
living room my MLP is at around 60% from front and back wall(which i read is the more ideal 40% or 60% for mlp), where bedroom MLP is 90% to the back wall.
bedroom setup NEEDS dspeaker to control some peaks, living room i havent got energy to do the measurement, but im not hearing any peaks yet. will do more once i have the top speakers and rear speakers up and running.
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: deadrick on May 21, 2019, 15:01
So weird, after I set up 5.1, I did a mcacc calibration using my pioneer avr, the mid bass feel gone, left with lower bass. Generally not as strong or shiok before the calibration..
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: rayleh on May 21, 2019, 16:20
Not sure how the MCACC works. It may cut off the peaks which you felt previously. Do you have any measuring tools like REW?
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: sevenz on May 21, 2019, 17:54
So weird, after I set up 5.1, I did a mcacc calibration using my pioneer avr, the mid bass feel gone, left with lower bass. Generally not as strong or shiok before the calibration..

Have u tried rerunning MCACC to see if it yields the same result?

Try increasing the sub channel volume on the AVR till your midbass feels syok. Usually we need to bump the AVR sub channel volume after calibration to tweak to personal pref to feel the thumps. =)
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: deadrick on May 23, 2019, 23:59
OK, I just shifted the sub more to the right and rerun mcacc, and connect the dspeaker, and now it feel much better. Haven't do my rew, but when I can find a pc to put in living room will test out.

Ran a frequency test, and find 51hz, 62hz, 73hz seems to have a null.

The 25to35hz does feels quite solid.
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: sevenz on May 24, 2019, 09:41
Nice. Happy that it's sounding better for u now!  :) Enjoy the bass
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: rayleh on May 24, 2019, 09:59
I tweaked with the time delay to improve the nulls. However, I also understand that decay is very important for bass, not just FR.
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: ronildoq on May 24, 2019, 18:23
Actually nothing to tweak if there is only one sub, the delays will not solve the 51, 62 & 73hz issues he is facing, the only way is placement

But move it to another location, u will solve 51hz, but may have 35hz issue... and so on...

You cannot not have a null in a room from 20-100hz... hence the recommendation to go dual

Now that you have experienced first hand, u will understand why everyone recommends going dual sub, u r now back to square one, 1 woofer or 2?

You have your answer now....
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: rayleh on May 24, 2019, 20:14
Thought he is running dual subs. Multiple subs is the way to go.
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: deadrick on May 25, 2019, 10:50
Placement for 2nd sub is an issue. I'm curious if those dual sub in front, is it meant to boost more bass, or also help in reduce nulls and peaks too?
I'm guessing both sub in front, the rew measurement wouldn't be too different to cover the nulls and peaks or the other sub.

Because if I can add 2nd sub, its only beside the left speaker. Across the front wall is the walkway to bedrooms, a it obstructing to do dual sub across the room.
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: rayleh on May 25, 2019, 13:12
My dual subs are exactly in the front to the left and right side. You are so wrong that they will not improve the bass. I use the miniDSP to cut the peaks and improve the nulls. Even without tuning, running dual subs is already better. This was validated using REW to measure.
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: ronildoq on May 26, 2019, 10:57
Thought he is running dual subs. Multiple subs is the way to go.

I thought I read it as 2.1 in living room, so impression was one sub only... yes if multiple subs , it’s the best !
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: ronildoq on May 26, 2019, 11:39
Placement for 2nd sub is an issue. I'm curious if those dual sub in front, is it meant to boost more bass, or also help in reduce nulls and peaks too?
I'm guessing both sub in front, the rew measurement wouldn't be too different to cover the nulls and peaks or the other sub.

Because if I can add 2nd sub, its only beside the left speaker. Across the front wall is the walkway to bedrooms, a it obstructing to do dual sub across the room.

You are right, adding the second sub across your front wall  most likely is for the headroom and SPLs , doesn’t smoothen things. Ideally if the goal is to smoothen the response at the listening position, then spreading them out would work in your favour. When spreading, what you want is each sub handling specific frequency and they supplement each other. You don’t want both fighting for the same frequency

That’s why u must always look at the individual sub response first, what’s its frequency response at X location, so u can overlay them and see if they are complementing each other

Good luck in your subwoofer journey, no pain no gain !
Title: Re: 1 woofer or 2?
Post by: Djblackfm on July 05, 2019, 16:16
A good read to be shared.





USING MULTIPLE SUBWOOFERS TO IMPROVE (FLATTEN) BASS

One of the major problems in home audio listening setups is the likelihood of an uneven bass response throughout the room as discussed here. Note: It’s important you read and understand that article first. unfortunately, this is an inescapable fact in ‘small’ rooms due to how bass sound waves react in these rooms. Bass waves will bounce off walls and create peaks and nulls within the room, leading to areas where bass is either amplified or reduced. Don’t fret, though, because physics can be conquered with a few subwoofers and some elbow grease — you can smooth your in-room bass response by using multiple subwoofers strategically located in your room.

Why doesn’t just one sub work?

Because of the nature of standing waves and room modes in your room, what you hear for a given bass frequency could differ significantly from your guest who is sitting 3 feet from you — you may be sitting in a peak while he is sitting in a null. Below is an example standing wave running across your room’s width with two of you sitting side by side.

standing wave experience-peak and null
Why not just use Equalization?

Equalization, or EQ, might be able to tame peaks (and perhaps nulls) for ONE seating position in your room. But any changes you make via EQ at one seat will exacerbate any peak and null issues other listeners are experiencing at other seats. This might be ok for a home audio setup with one listening location, but won’t work for a home theater setup with multiple seats.

Before EQ is applied, you need to work on smoothing the natural response as much as possible uniformly throughout the room. Multiple subwoofers will help you do that.

Can’t I just use bass traps / absorbers instead?

Sure you can! If you’re willing to have traps that are several FEET in thickness. You’ll commonly read online or hear from acoustic panel retailers that all you need to do is add thick corner bass traps to smooth your response. That may be true for bass response above 150-200hz, but these panels won’t help you one bit in the important frequency ranges impacted by standing waves and room modes — even if you cover every corner in your room.

The wavelengths that we’re talking about for 20-120hz are 9 to 50+ feet long! Absorptive bass traps need to be about as thick as a quarter the wavelength to be effective in trapping that frequency, so you’re talking about traps that are 2.5-12.5 FEET thick (or that are thinner but stick out into your that far). See here for a view into how long bass wavelengths are. We don’t know about you, but panels that thick don’t fit into our home theater and home audio listening rooms.

Why multiple subwoofers help

Using additional subwoofers to improve bass response in your room is an effective way to tame room modes.  By placing subwoofers at strategic locations, they can be used to either excite or cancel room modes that your room’s dimensions naturally create. Without getting into deep physics lessons, just know that by placing a subwoofer in a null that exists because of your room’s modes, you will cancel out that room mode and its nulls, effectively smoothing out the response in room for that frequency.

You need to understand that a subwoofer placed in a specific location will have a unique reflection and standing wave pattern in your room. By placing subwoofers in various locations, you will create a unique reflection and standing wave pattern for each sub you add. These patterns of peaks and nulls will then sum together at your various seating positions.

Placed correctly, these different patterns will have peaks and nulls that occur at different locations and they will all add together and smooth out the individual peaks and nulls from any one subwoofer. As you add more subwoofers, the response should be even smoother since you benefit from a more diverse set of reflection and standing wave patterns. This will give you a more uniform listening response over a larger area rather than one optimized listening location with a single subwoofer.

So what do we mean by strategic locations? We generally mean the locations of nulls created by your room’s natural room modes. The nulls that create the biggest issues occur at 50% of your room’s length and width dimensions, followed by the nulls that occur at the 25% and 75% locations. These correspond to your primary and secondary room modes in the length and width dimensions in your room. More on that below.

Let’s take a real life example courtesy of MiniDSP, a manufacturer of digital signal processing hardware. We’ll focus on the frequencies up to 100hz because subwoofers are usually crossed over to the main speakers around 80hz.

Below is what a single subwoofer looks like at three different in-room seating locations. Notice how there are large variations (15dB!) in volume level between seats in 65-100hz frequency range. Individual seats (i.e each line) have very big peaks and nulls as well.

Now let’s see what happens when we add a second subwoofer to the room and look at the same three seating locations. Notice how much smoother the frequency response has become for each individual seat. Also notice that the gap in volume between seats has narrowed, especially in the 65-100hz frequency range.

Lastly, let’s look at what happens when a third subwoofer is added and properly integrated with the other two. Now you can see excellent uniformity in bass response not only for each individual seat (i.e. each individual line is relatively flat) but you also see exceptionally tight response ACROSS seats (i.e. the gaps between each line are very small).

In another real-world test in conducted by HomeTheaterReview.com, subwoofers were placed in the four corners of the room and the response measured from the listening position with one (green line), two (red line), and four (blue line) subwoofers. Just as above, you can see that as you add more subwoofers, the in-room bass response for a seat gets significantly smoother.

While the chart shows response up to 500hz, we are concerned with bass response below 100hz given where crossovers are typically set. This test showed marked improvement in smooth bass response with two subwoofers, and even further improvement with four.

So how many subwoofers should you add… and where?

So if four subwoofers are better than one, would six or eight be better than four? Research has shown that there is little benefit from adding more than four subwoofers.

Extensive and ground-breaking research was done by Todd Welti of Harman International on increasing numbers of subwoofers. In his research, both mathematical models and real-world testing was done to determine the impact of increasing numbers of subwoofers on flattening the bass response in a small room. The goal of the study was to find ways to minimize the variation of frequency response from one location to the next within a seating area while an additional goal was to maximize low frequency output of the subwoofers.

Both computer simulations and real-word measurements were done in a 20 foot by 24 foot room, with the number of subwoofers ranging from one to 18 and a listening area in the center of the room.

Both the computer modeling and real-world tests found the best and most cost-effective results by using four subwoofers.  Two subwoofers were almost as good though, so you’ll need to think through whether the added cost of two more subwoofers is worth it to you — that’s a personal decision we can’t help you with, though we still recommend 3-4 subwoofers if possible!

Best subwoofer configurations as found by Harman:

Symmetrical locations seemed to work the best.  One subwoofer in each corner had good low-frequency output, but does not perform quite as well as one subwoofer at each wall midpoint from the perspective of achieving the smoothest bass response. This can be explained by the fact that the walls’ midpoints correspond to the locations of the nulls created by the primary room modes!

So depending on your subwoofers’ capabilities, you should aim for either the corners or wall midpoints — if your subwoofers struggle to hit the output levels you need for your listening volumes, you may want to sacrifice some smoothness in your bass response for additional output and thus put your subs in your room’s corners.

Bringing it home
All the experiments and measurements discussed above point to multiple subwoofers as a very valid way to fix uneven bass response caused by standing waves or room resonance in home theater and home audio setups.  Due to the many variables of room size, seating locations, and furnishings, there is no single answer or formula for subwoofer placement, but you can use the experimentation above as a starting point and combine that with your own listening (and in-room measurements) to find your preferred locations.

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