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AV Galaxy => Planet Home Theater => Topic started by: JeffersDJ on October 06, 2018, 11:42

Title: 7.1.4 ATMOS setup : Can Ceiling Surround speaker as effective as bookshelf?
Post by: JeffersDJ on October 06, 2018, 11:42
Hi All

I am setting up a 7.1.4 Atmos HT. My preference is to have 4 Atmos and 4 Surround speakers in-ceiling. I know many will say bookshelf speaker more effective placing them nearby sweet spot , but for ecstatic sake in-ceiling will make it subtle.

Anyone with experience of in-ceiling surround installed and share your experience? Today with better design speaker (tweeter directing, wider dispersion etc) help? Please also share your make & model of speakers that you find them good for this purpose?

Thank you in advance !!



JeffersDJ
 
Title: Re: 7.1.4 ATMOS setup : Can Ceiling Surround speaker as effective as bookshelf?
Post by: YANG on October 06, 2018, 12:33
Tweeter that produces high frequency is directional. If u tilt ur speakers slightly up towards the ceiling it can bounce off the highs. But to get it bounce towards the center, u need to tilt the speakers in a way that looks awkward, as well as time consuming... Atmos speakers with angled tops makes placement of the speakers less awkward, and little time consuming.
Title: Re: 7.1.4 ATMOS setup : Can Ceiling Surround speaker as effective as bookshelf?
Post by: JeffersDJ on October 06, 2018, 13:04
Tweeter that produces high frequency is directional. If u tilt ur speakers slightly up towards the ceiling it can bounce off the highs. But to get it bounce towards the center, u need to tilt the speakers in a way that looks awkward, as well as time consuming... Atmos speakers with angled tops makes placement of the speakers less awkward, and little time consuming.
Yang , thanks and also sorry that my question may not be too clear. I am referring to in-ceiling speakers and not ceiling mount. however I have seen in-ceiling speakers with internally angled to simulate the same as you mentioned. Those are normally 2-3 times more expensive than normal in-ceiling.

Given no choice situation for ecstatic sake, I prefer in-ceiling and hope that there some speakers the forum people have used and experienced them good to introduce me.

Some people are saying by adjusting the swivel-able tweeter to desire position can direct the audio to preferred direction (hmm I am not so sure this is true?) 

Any advise?

 
Title: Re: 7.1.4 ATMOS setup : Can Ceiling Surround speaker as effective as bookshelf?
Post by: rayleh on October 06, 2018, 13:32
I want to go for bookshelf from in ceiling but I was told that near field bookshelf surround will not be optimal if there are more than one MLP so stick to in ceiling and add 2 front height instead. Much better immersive and also surround sounds better now. Most likely due to new AVR.
Title: Re: 7.1.4 ATMOS setup : Can Ceiling Surround speaker as effective as bookshelf?
Post by: whitesox on October 06, 2018, 19:30
I want to go for bookshelf from in ceiling but I was told that near field bookshelf surround will not be optimal if there are more than one MLP so stick to in ceiling and add 2 front height instead. Much better immersive and also surround sounds better now. Most likely due to new AVR.

Ceiling speaker hard to do maintenance... accumulate dust will become mass and create 'stiffness' when the driver moves.
I am not sure the heat inside the ceiling will affect them too for a longer period of time.

I would prefer small bookshelf rather than satellite speaker because it produces some kind of bass (not too dry) but some satellite speaker also producing good bass.
Usually, Audy will give 120-160hz for satellite speaker compare to the small bookshelf at around 80-120hz.

Aesthetically concern... then choose ceiling speaker

 :)
Title: Re: 7.1.4 ATMOS setup : Can Ceiling Surround speaker as effective as bookshelf?
Post by: JeffersDJ on October 06, 2018, 20:50
Ceiling speaker hard to do maintenance... accumulate dust will become mass and create 'stiffness' when the driver moves.
I am not sure the heat inside the ceiling will affect them too for a longer period of time.

I would prefer small bookshelf rather than satellite speaker because it produces some kind of bass (not too dry) but some satellite speaker also producing good bass.
Usually, Audy will give 120-160hz for satellite speaker compare to the small bookshelf at around 80-120hz.

Aesthetically concern... then choose ceiling speaker

 :)
whitesox agree with you to some extend, the flip side of bookshelf is the floor cable which is not easy considering my living area is complicated to run to the rear. My false ceiling is entire living area.. easier for me. anyway thanks for your comments.

Actually I am looking forward to anyone who can recommend the right speaker and model?

I am planning to buy Focal Aria Series for two front and centre... I think for the ceiling better for me to be consistence using flax cone.

Anyone comment on Focal?

Thanks in advance.



Title: Re: 7.1.4 ATMOS setup : Can Ceiling Surround speaker as effective as bookshelf?
Post by: ralfale on October 06, 2018, 21:08
Locally, I like the Atmos RBH VM815 speakers selling at sound decision. However, I am also thinking to try RSL C34E which is highly popular in the states.
Title: Re: 7.1.4 ATMOS setup : Can Ceiling Surround speaker as effective as bookshelf?
Post by: sevenz on October 06, 2018, 21:49
Hi All

I am setting up a 7.1.4 Atmos HT. My preference is to have 4 Atmos and 4 Surround speakers in-ceiling. I know many will say bookshelf speaker more effective placing them nearby sweet spot , but for ecstatic sake in-ceiling will make it subtle.

Anyone with experience of in-ceiling surround installed and share your experience? Today with better design speaker (tweeter directing, wider dispersion etc) help? Please also share your make & model of speakers that you find them good for this purpose?

Thank you in advance !!



JeffersDJ
 


Try to go for wider dispersion drivers/ tweeters to overcome the angling issue of the speakers. Coaxial designs could help.

But placing all your 4x surrounds in the ceiling together with your 4x atmos speakers is not advisable as the surrounds sound field is meant to be at ear level; and ATMOS at height/overhead level.

If you place the surrounds and ATMOS in the ceiling together, the surround and ATMOS sounds all be jumbled up and it brings down your entire HT sound/ immersion quality.

Instead of 4 surrounds, are u able to just have 2, but place them at ear level? Or mount the surround speakers to the rear/ side wall? I had this problem of limited space for surrounds placement too but overcame it by mounting my surrounds on rear wall. See below photo:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/grcIX4FFWJgAYpKkrBJjkkX8KJCv8W4YOSYxFzmYyCBe9uzs9qRMIPAga0kzNf9r7181xOHvAS4dWKRCi62YQHMfQDGfmrzMED-SDhOerjIpcZYXmtmbwMbzU-P5Ne_-BpOYurv997FH2stzxNWw9fFYCP0-183sQ7Ncb_ai_Cr-R5vFmGx4vOvn8GevfWCxaD18rUHSIhMq3xMZFFyZCUMRu8_sQ7hWpodgW_EfSiVFRQXuCwUntQAhL3LFFPxvVK71e0qkdaOGYS7KEiF_liJbMHpzFf0TD47LNTGH4bwHhlxPl5lT6VErbxNNggf4HXAc8TUh0uImTMomfoG9NmASHcTX3Jxglenr0sYsi1UYsiDKGg-GaK8I1pCfczlowcfyqq4qxhZtbr9orT_To4hwmBQPrt83cLdvG7Iaa1Wg0cWS5Br9jDhw2IDHjzYtPnSLeT7pXZf5iYGE4MWXY9gAQQWg3GqEoqee23UZi9S3bfEL9HPbvsqM5MEUZtQYAqlwDxyiMBHtvNfQaTTQ_f0DxyYMXTR-k4enN1MsSAgXkL-NxQIy3Y4xsQufSypVE_RRzj7501qN88EDB34oQKgt9LM4KPnSHhZShvbru8dsSHcVm5wP=w634-h845-no-tmp.jpg)
Title: Re: 7.1.4 ATMOS setup : Can Ceiling Surround speaker as effective as bookshelf?
Post by: JeffersDJ on October 08, 2018, 00:10
Try to go for wider dispersion drivers/ tweeters to overcome the angling issue of the speakers. Coaxial designs could help.

But placing all your 4x surrounds in the ceiling together with your 4x atmos speakers is not advisable as the surrounds sound field is meant to be at ear level; and ATMOS at height/overhead level.

If you place the surrounds and ATMOS in the ceiling together, the surround and ATMOS sounds all be jumbled up and it brings down your entire HT sound/ immersion quality.

Instead of 4 surrounds, are u able to just have 2, but place them at ear level? Or mount the surround speakers to the rear/ side wall? I had this problem of limited space for surrounds placement too but overcame it by mounting my surrounds on rear wall. See below photo:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/grcIX4FFWJgAYpKkrBJjkkX8KJCv8W4YOSYxFzmYyCBe9uzs9qRMIPAga0kzNf9r7181xOHvAS4dWKRCi62YQHMfQDGfmrzMED-SDhOerjIpcZYXmtmbwMbzU-P5Ne_-BpOYurv997FH2stzxNWw9fFYCP0-183sQ7Ncb_ai_Cr-R5vFmGx4vOvn8GevfWCxaD18rUHSIhMq3xMZFFyZCUMRu8_sQ7hWpodgW_EfSiVFRQXuCwUntQAhL3LFFPxvVK71e0qkdaOGYS7KEiF_liJbMHpzFf0TD47LNTGH4bwHhlxPl5lT6VErbxNNggf4HXAc8TUh0uImTMomfoG9NmASHcTX3Jxglenr0sYsi1UYsiDKGg-GaK8I1pCfczlowcfyqq4qxhZtbr9orT_To4hwmBQPrt83cLdvG7Iaa1Wg0cWS5Br9jDhw2IDHjzYtPnSLeT7pXZf5iYGE4MWXY9gAQQWg3GqEoqee23UZi9S3bfEL9HPbvsqM5MEUZtQYAqlwDxyiMBHtvNfQaTTQ_f0DxyYMXTR-k4enN1MsSAgXkL-NxQIy3Y4xsQufSypVE_RRzj7501qN88EDB34oQKgt9LM4KPnSHhZShvbru8dsSHcVm5wP=w634-h845-no-tmp.jpg)
Hi sevenz, thanks for your kind advise. I understand that ideally surround should be ear level to be optimised. my living room (very open and wide) unfortunately no regular 4 walls (only front), living room is very open unless I have to put book shelf speaker with stand at ear lever... then again compromise on ecstatic and wire on floor issue. not easy. I just hope will be ok. Yes the surround speaker will be coaxial speaker.

 
Title: Re: 7.1.4 ATMOS setup : Can Ceiling Surround speaker as effective as bookshelf?
Post by: DJQ on October 08, 2018, 00:31
(https://i.imgur.com/Ccpi1DX.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/fABoy7d.jpg)
i am using Dynaudio IC 17, 4 of them for my atmos. works real well.

effectively with the newer studio C65 you can direct the tweeter angle position.
(https://images.crutchfieldonline.com/ImageHandler/trim/620/378/products/2018/6/345/g345S4C65-F.jpg)
Title: Re: 7.1.4 ATMOS setup : Can Ceiling Surround speaker as effective as bookshelf?
Post by: CASH on October 08, 2018, 00:33
short n sweet answer from me, is NOPE...
u ain't gonna get anything in sync..
surrounds are surrounds...
ear level, NOT in ceiling..
so I would say, scrap your idea of even thinking about Atmos.
don't waste..
that's my opinion.
no offense ah...
Title: Re: 7.1.4 ATMOS setup : Can Ceiling Surround speaker as effective as bookshelf?
Post by: DJQ on October 08, 2018, 09:35
Hi All

I am setting up a 7.1.4 Atmos HT. My preference is to have 4 Atmos and 4 Surround speakers in-ceiling. I know many will say bookshelf speaker more effective placing them nearby sweet spot , but for ecstatic sake in-ceiling will make it subtle.

Anyone with experience of in-ceiling surround installed and share your experience? Today with better design speaker (tweeter directing, wider dispersion etc) help? Please also share your make & model of speakers that you find them good for this purpose?

Thank you in advance !!



JeffersDJ

bro. i do not quite understand what you are trying to do. i drop you a pm to discuss and share further.
ah i get it. you wanna use in ceiling speakers as rear surrounds? cannot.
but you can consider those in wall type to put behind as surround. the sound dispersion level is very different. there are a few brands out there with in wall mounting type speakers.
end of the day you spend alot more on false wall, cables, labor custom it. better get a wall mount type bookshelf speaker and hang on the wall.
Title: Re: 7.1.4 ATMOS setup : Can Ceiling Surround speaker as effective as bookshelf?
Post by: sevenz on October 09, 2018, 17:48
Hi sevenz, thanks for your kind advise. I understand that ideally surround should be ear level to be optimised. my living room (very open and wide) unfortunately no regular 4 walls (only front), living room is very open unless I have to put book shelf speaker with stand at ear lever... then again compromise on ecstatic and wire on floor issue. not easy. I just hope will be ok. Yes the surround speaker will be coaxial speaker.

Oic... Understand.

R u able to post a photo of your floorplan or room so that we can see if can help come up with ideas?
Title: Re: 7.1.4 ATMOS setup : Can Ceiling Surround speaker as effective as bookshelf?
Post by: JeffersDJ on October 11, 2018, 09:24
short n sweet answer from me, is NOPE...
u ain't gonna get anything in sync..
surrounds are surrounds...
ear level, NOT in ceiling..
so I would say, scrap your idea of even thinking about Atmos.
don't waste..
that's my opinion.
no offense ah...
Thank you guys !! I am now happy with the 7.1.4 atmos using 2 book-shelf (agree with CASH) and 2 in-ceiling (no choice), and 4 atmos. Decided to use all Flax Cone from Focal Aria, to be consistence and not to merge audio character. The rear surround (in-ceiling) speakers are working very well, tried atmos movie (thanks to DJQ for the atmos DVD).. rear surround is working well when increase their dB level from Denon.. working well.
Thanks to all that help provide suggestions and info, appreciate them. Here is a good look of my setup... my next will likely looking at stereo amp to bring out Focal 948 front 2.
Ok cheers and keep in touch..

(https://i.imgur.com/6zbcLzb.jpg)

 
Title: Re: 7.1.4 ATMOS setup : Can Ceiling Surround speaker as effective as bookshelf?
Post by: DJQ on October 11, 2018, 09:33
very solid setup bro. reminds me being a newbie starting. suddenly all the shoik shoik speakers.  ;)

maybe you can restart Focal owners thread. long time no one post liao... since last yr nobody post.

http://www.xtremeplace.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=61969.msg1146999#msg1146999
Title: Re: 7.1.4 ATMOS setup : Can Ceiling Surround speaker as effective as bookshelf?
Post by: BadEnglish on October 11, 2018, 09:47
Thank you guys !! I am now happy with the 7.1.4 atmos using 2 book-shelf (agree with CASH) and 2 in-ceiling (no choice), and 4 atmos. Decided to use all Flax Cone from Focal Aria, to be consistence and not to merge audio character. The rear surround (in-ceiling) speakers are working very well, tried atmos movie (thanks to DJQ for the atmos DVD).. rear surround is working well when increase their dB level from Denon.. working well.
Thanks to all that help provide suggestions and info, appreciate them. Here is a good look of my setup... my next will likely looking at stereo amp to bring out Focal 948 front 2.
Ok cheers and keep in touch..

(https://i.imgur.com/6zbcLzb.jpg)

So how your 2 back surround on ceiling sound like ? You feel as if coming from back of your head or over the head.
Title: Re: 7.1.4 ATMOS setup : Can Ceiling Surround speaker as effective as bookshelf?
Post by: JeffersDJ on October 11, 2018, 21:18
So how your 2 back surround on ceiling sound like ? You feel as if coming from back of your head or over the head.
after this setup I have only few chances to play movies ... tried on 2 occasions: 1) i felt rear surround have less impact. Side surround is very good (obviously they are beside sofa). 2) there is adjustment on the dB gain of all speakers, I select about 4dB on surround back and the rest level to 1-2 dB, and rear surround became very clear. its like behind the head. I tried watching transformer. Very good and i like it considering I really have no way to have rear speakers (audio wiring and power cable access problem). It actually works.
Title: Re: 7.1.4 ATMOS setup : Can Ceiling Surround speaker as effective as bookshelf?
Post by: BadEnglish on October 11, 2018, 21:26
after this setup I have only few chances to play movies ... tried on 2 occasions: 1) i felt rear surround have less impact. Side surround is very good (obviously they are beside sofa). 2) there is adjustment on the dB gain of all speakers, I select about 4dB on surround back and the rest level to 1-2 dB, and rear surround became very clear. its like behind the head. I tried watching transformer. Very good and i like it considering I really have no way to have rear speakers (audio wiring and power cable access problem). It actually works.

Why not 5.1.6 ?
Title: Re: 7.1.4 ATMOS setup : Can Ceiling Surround speaker as effective as bookshelf?
Post by: sevenz on October 11, 2018, 23:10
Thank you guys !! I am now happy with the 7.1.4 atmos using 2 book-shelf (agree with CASH) and 2 in-ceiling (no choice), and 4 atmos. Decided to use all Flax Cone from Focal Aria, to be consistence and not to merge audio character. The rear surround (in-ceiling) speakers are working very well, tried atmos movie (thanks to DJQ for the atmos DVD).. rear surround is working well when increase their dB level from Denon.. working well.
Thanks to all that help provide suggestions and info, appreciate them. Here is a good look of my setup...
(https://i.imgur.com/6zbcLzb.jpg)

wow very beautiful place and setup bro. :)

Just a humble suggestion to consider. Because placing your back surrounds in the ceiling will likely confuse the intended sounds coming from overhead/ATMOS speakers and surround speakers, and as a result bring down the overall HT experience compared to having just 5.1.4.

U might want to try:
1) disconnecting the back surrounds in the ceiling, and do with 5.1.4, and moving your current side surrounds slightly back a little so that it acts like side and rear surrounds.
2) try (1) above but convert the back surrounds to another pair of ATMOS speakers, making your system 5.1.6
Title: Re: 7.1.4 ATMOS setup : Can Ceiling Surround speaker as effective as bookshelf?
Post by: sigurros on October 11, 2018, 23:28
Thank you guys !! I am now happy with the 7.1.4 atmos using 2 book-shelf (agree with CASH) and 2 in-ceiling (no choice), and 4 atmos. Decided to use all Flax Cone from Focal Aria, to be consistence and not to merge audio character. The rear surround (in-ceiling) speakers are working very well, tried atmos movie (thanks to DJQ for the atmos DVD).. rear surround is working well when increase their dB level from Denon.. working well.
Thanks to all that help provide suggestions and info, appreciate them. Here is a good look of my setup... my next will likely looking at stereo amp to bring out Focal 948 front 2.
Ok cheers and keep in touch..

(https://i.imgur.com/6zbcLzb.jpg)

 

Hi. May I know what screen you using?
Title: Re: 7.1.4 ATMOS setup : Can Ceiling Surround speaker as effective as bookshelf?
Post by: JeffersDJ on October 14, 2018, 00:07
wow very beautiful place and setup bro. :)

Just a humble suggestion to consider. Because placing your back surrounds in the ceiling will likely confuse the intended sounds coming from overhead/ATMOS speakers and surround speakers, and as a result bring down the overall HT experience compared to having just 5.1.4.

U might want to try:
1) disconnecting the back surrounds in the ceiling, and do with 5.1.4, and moving your current side surrounds slightly back a little so that it acts like side and rear surrounds.
2) try (1) above but convert the back surrounds to another pair of ATMOS speakers, making your system 5.1.6
It's a good idea. I will try and let you know. Speakers not run it yet. Thanks for the suggestion
Title: Re: 7.1.4 ATMOS setup : Can Ceiling Surround speaker as effective as bookshelf?
Post by: JeffersDJ on October 14, 2018, 00:08
Hi. May I know what screen you using?
The screen bought from Ali-express China made. Fixed it myself.  ;D
Title: Re: 7.1.4 ATMOS setup : Can Ceiling Surround speaker as effective as bookshelf?
Post by: sigurros on October 14, 2018, 09:13
The screen bought from Ali-express China made. Fixed it myself.  ;D

Cheers bro.

Thought of getting one with tab as well with black diamond.